sunnysal Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 I swapped my AK3 foor ALK x-overs and while I liked the sound you should not expect the bass to suddenly fill in. this bass problem certainly sounds like the crossover or drivers are damaged in some way (though you said both woofers are making sound right?) or you have something way out of whack in the wiring (dont check phase visually, try swapping and listening to conifrm, also dont forget to try phase swapping in the internal connections between crossover and bass cabinet). with those electronics, in that room you should be getting good, deep bass response, at least strong to 35hz. you could perhaps say they sounded a bit bright but your description of the huge lack of bass points to a defective component not to some tweak. tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brockybear Posted January 12, 2011 Author Share Posted January 12, 2011 Thanks everyone for your advice. Yes the Khorns are firmly in the corners. When I pull them away you can two lines running down the walls from the backboard rubbers. I purchased some pipe insulation and made a better seal on the top section of the horns. This did make a difference. I have traced all the wiring and each speaker is in phase. When my partner went out this morning I cranked the Khorns to 95db and the bass was fine in the room. Lower volume levels and the HF section seems to out shout the bottom end. Withn 12 foot ceilings its a big room to fill.I have a SS amp lying around and will hook the KHorns up to see if there is a difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebse2a3 Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 If you haven't yet I would make one suggestion that when using the Cary Amps try the 4 ohm taps which should tilt the tonal balance slightly to the bass side versus the HF section of the KHorn. mike tn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brockybear Posted January 12, 2011 Author Share Posted January 12, 2011 Problem Solved...Thanks Everbody for your input. The problem is the Cary CAD211 monoblocks. I hooked up a Solid State Class A amp and the KHorns just about knocked out of the room. All the bass problems at low volume dissapeared. The Cary 211's are high power tubed amps (150 watt each) designed to run more inefficient speakers. I dont think they match well with the Khorns, unless I am driving the speakers above 90db+ then everything sounds fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garyrc Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 I'm glad your problem is solved. Still strange, though. Does this mean that the Cary 211s have deficient bass when operated at low power? I wonder why this would be. I used to have a room about your size and a peak reading digital meter on the power amp. Average power used by the K-horns was less than a watt, and very loud peaks were 6.3 watts. The highest I ever had it was 25 wts, which moved the room. So if the Cary's bass is rolled off when the power output is less than about 6 or 7 watts, I can see how this would be responsible, but I just don't know why. Have you considered asking Cary? When you brought in the Heresy pair you raised the power needed by 9 dB, so maybe that put the Carys in a better place, wattage-wise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 The problem is the Cary CAD211 monoblocks. I hooked up a Solid State Class A amp and the KHorns just about knocked out of the room. All the bass problems at low volume disappeared.Interesting...what would cause small-signal nonlinearity in the amp's FR? Could it be related to lf Khorn load impedance or amplifier output impedance? Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
russ69 Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 The 35Hz impedance rise looks nasty. 35Hz is right where the real good meaty part of the bass is. If the Cary is wimping out in that area, that's bad (captain obvious says). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarryC Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 I agree with Garyrc and Chris, this is very strange and makes little sense. I suggest you ask Cary -- I borrowed a dealer's demo Cary amp once which turned out to have a very odd FR balance. So, I inquired at Cary. They were really pissed, because they had originally built it as part of a triamped system with each amp having its own FR band in lieu of electronic crossovers!! Really unlikely, but I'd sure discuss it with the factory regardless. Larry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brockybear Posted January 13, 2011 Author Share Posted January 13, 2011 I guess the only way to work out what is really going on is too fire up the 1/3 octave spectrum analyser and compare the responce of the KHorns driven by the Cary's verses a Solid State amp. I will also email Cary and see if they have anything to report about the 211's and KHorns Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebse2a3 Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 Hey Brockybear Since you didn't comment I just wanted to check again and see if you tried the 4 ohm taps of the Cary amps? The 4 ohm taps will give you the the best damping and maximum bass versus the midrange due to the impedance interactions with the Khorns. Of course I'm not saying you will like this better but it is one variable that's worth trying if you haven't. mike tn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brockybear Posted January 13, 2011 Author Share Posted January 13, 2011 Hi Mike, thanks for the advice. Sorry it took so long to reply but I have been listening to both 8 ohm and 4 ohm taps and you are correct ther 4 ohm gives the boost in bass and settled down the HF section. I agree the horns sound better on the 4 ohm tap. Is this typical of Cary tube gear? I have asked the company to look into running CAD 211's on Khorns, John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebse2a3 Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 Hi Mike, thanks for the advice. Sorry it took so long to reply but I have been listening to both 8 ohm and 4 ohm taps and you are correct ther 4 ohm gives the boost in bass and settled down the HF section. I agree the horns sound better on the 4 ohm tap. Is this typical of Cary tube gear? I have asked the company to look into running CAD 211's on Khorns, John Hey John All amplifiers are somewhat affected by the impedence of the loudspeaker. Typical Solid State Amplifiers (but not all, examples like some Nelson Pass designs) with low output impedence are usually the least affected tonally speaking when connected to a varying impedence versus frequency of a speaker like the KHorn model you have. Tube amplifiers like typical Single Ended designs and some Push/Pull designs especially with no global feedback tend to have a higher output impedence and when you couple these amplifiers to loudspeakers that vary their impedence versus frequency like the KHorns you have will result in some Tonal Shifting (I've measured as much as +/- 2db over a wide bandwidths which is easly perceived and is often the reason some will like one tap or the other depending in part on the individual listener's total system and room synergy and individual taste) and this tonal shifting tends to follow the trend of the impedence of the loudspeaker system. In the case of the KHorn you have when you are using the 4 ohm tap you are getting a more ideal impedence coupling in the bass region and less ideal impedence coupling where the impedence rises (see the impedence plot Chris posted by Heyser for the Khorn) thus as you perceived the LF was lifted versus the MF/HF. Just a note: Before someone chims in and uses what I have just pointed out about the Tube Amplifier examples I've given as a reason to condem them IMHO no amplifiers are perfect and just because an amplifier might have a low output impedence (Solid State designs for example) doesn't make them perfect or superior in other areas of performance. The important thing to know is that all amplifiers have flaws and design characteristics that we listeners need to be aware of and at some point it really does come down to which imperfect amplifier has the best synergy with our individual system/room and taste to get the maximum enjoyment out of this very enjoyable form of entertainment in music playback. mike tn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DANGERDAN Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 Good to see you have that fixed, i have the same problem with my speakers as well when turning up the volume the bass is there but the HF seems to drown out the bass at low volumes. I am certain a good class A amp will fix my problem too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pzannucci Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 Good to see you have that fixed, i have the same problem with my speakers as well when turning up the volume the bass is there but the HF seems to drown out the bass at low volumes. I am certain a good class A amp will fix my problem too Make sure low output impedence with higher dampening factor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 The important thing to know is that all amplifiers have flaws and design characteristics that we listeners need to be aware of and at some point it really does come down to which imperfect amplifier has the best synergy with our individual system/room and taste to get the maximum enjoyment out of this very enjoyable form of entertainment in music playback. Mike, Perhaps it's appropriate to point out that active crossover setups, which couple drivers to amplifier outputs without the need of passive networks, make a lot of sense. Active crossovers avoid many of the issues discussed here that we see with passive crossovers and their balancing networks which shift impedance up or down to achieve relative balance of the speaker's drivers. Woofers (even horn-loaded ones) take the most power due to the fact that they're almost aways the least efficient acoustically - usually by 6-10 dB or more relative to midrange and tweeter compression drivers Active crossovers allow you to bypass essentially all of those problems, providing more available power to your drivers (i.e., power isn't soaked up by the passive crossover networks), providing better driver damping due to the direct coupling, and protecting your tweeters from woofer-power-induced amplifier clipping. There is usually a decrease in reproduced distortion due to the reduced band of operation for each amplifier channel and reduced heating of networks. I believe that the reason why many people use passive networks today in higher-end consumer speakers is due to buyer familiarity rather than performance. The pro-speaker market made the shift to actives some time ago especially with the appearance of quality affordable active crossovers. Just my $0.02 Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KdAgain Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 Good to see you have that fixed, i have the same problem with my speakers as well when turning up the volume the bass is there but the HF seems to drown out the bass at low volumes. I am certain a good class A amp will fix my problem too With our Khorns I definitely notice a drop in low end at lower volumes. And this is using a variety of amps. The Fletcher Muson Curve shows the perceived dropoff at both ends of the frequency spectrum during low listening volumes. Most older preamps had a "Loudness" gain control that was designed to offset this human problem. In recent years any form of tone control/equalization has become 'bad' and most of these functions are no longer available. If you listen a lot at low levels and have any form of tone control or equalization available I suggest that it isn't all bad to use some bass boost. Rod Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brockybear Posted January 15, 2011 Author Share Posted January 15, 2011 Hi Rod, The final solution was to use my VAF Transmission Line Subs to compensate the bass loss at lower volume levels. The subs work up to 90db and then fade out as the KHorns kick in at the higher volume levels. At 95 db the Cary amps seemed to really kick in and the KHorns took off like a rocket. It was like being at a live concert. Using the 4ohm tap was a real plus; at 100db the KHorns were shaking the room. In hindsight I would have used a different amplifier but I live in outback Australia and Cary amps are $23,000 AU dollars so I cant afford to walk away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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