Heresy upgrade with great imaging, smooth midrange and low-end SLAM!!

[Antone]

Chris,

Fascinating stuff! Thank you. I didn't know that they were still making La Scala's. If movement distorts, then porting my enclosures would only drastically increase distortion. The distortion (IM & THD) of my power amp is below the threshold of contemporary measuring equipment at any frequency and at any power level I would ever use. I appreciate low distortion, but I consider shallow, too-quiet bass a more irritating distortion of the signal than FM distortion (just as I find low wow & flutter much more important in a turntable than what exotic material-e.g. glass-comprises a belt-driven [yikes!] platter).

You have convinced me to avoid turning my Heresy into a bass reflex system. I don't prefer the overall sound of the Advent, but its bass's depth and volume are superior to the Heresy's (or were before I installed beefier woofers, better inductors and poly-fiber stuffing). I have toyed with the idea of creating a scaled-down Klipschorn enclosure to horn-load the woofer, but I don't have the woodworking skills. It seems that acoustic suspension is the middle ground between porting and horn-loading, distortion-wise. Placing them in corners may be a move towards horn-loading, using the boundaries to reinforce lows.

Thanks,

Antone

[Guest " "]

http://community.klipsch.com/forums/t/146769.aspx

a parade view of klipsch bass spec's

[Stan man]

Hi ,

Antone , I'm disapointed in reading that you're going with advise of some one who has'nt even any experience in porting a Heresy. That's your choice. I don't know where you come up with an $80 figire for porting. The tubes are $6.00 each $10.00 including cuts for the rear panels. I just also wanted to report my findings of the Erse Super Q inductor. It's a perfect match for my application. The opposite of what I got out of the C core. The bass performance has improved even furhter. If distoion means improved over all bass response, including tighter , more tuneful, deeper extention and more musical. Give me distortion !

Stan

[Antone]

Stan,

I'm glad that you found an inductor yielding the results you want (and for less money). The bass I am hearing with my sealed, modified Heresy's is quite satisfying (almost like turning on a "loudness" button), so I can wait awhile to try the porting.

To DJK I wrote: 'Also, Stan Man has told me to try a 4.3125" diameter port tube with length adjustable from 6.25" to 11.75"; would that diameter work at a different length, or is it just too big around?'

DJK replied: "You must use a 3" dia port with an elbow. A 4" port would be too long to tune the box properly, and a 3" without an elbow will be too close to another surface. JBL uses a 3" port with an elbow in the L100/4311 models."

So you see, I will need to buy the 3" diameter port, tube, elbow and coupler ($30 per speaker), and I need to buy new MDF sheets to be the new enclosure backs (since I don't want to alter the original wooden ones) $20?, cut to size with mirror-imaged 3" holes.

I'm sorry that I seemed to dismiss your advice. You graciously tried my suggested woofer inductor (which apparently did not work out) and are being a good sport about it, so I ought to give your suggestion a try. When I do, I'll let you know how it sounds.

Thanks,

Antone

[Antone]

Mr. Crites:

I have just found your website. . . oh. It answers many of my questions. I will be ordering the CT-125 K-77M replacement tweeters ASAP.

Humbly,

Antone

[Blvdre]

I think you may be misunderstanding Cask's statements. He's not infering that a ported design has more distortion than an acoustic supsension design (if both designs are properly implemented), but that direct radiators (of which both of those designs are) have inherently more distortion than a comparable horn loaded design.

[Antone]

Blvdre,

Thanks. I guess Cask's inference, boiled down, is that, even if shallower, horn-loaded bass is preferable because of its lower FM distortion. "Distortion" is a measure of all discrepancy between the original source's signal and the reproduced signal. A speaker that fails to reproduce the lowest audible frequencies at or near the same volume level as the source signal is exhibiting a far more discernible and objectionable distortion (to me) than FM distortion: "Double-basses, I thought I told you to play forte here, not mezzo-piano!" After all, a good phono cartridge possesses around 5% to 9% THD, and I don't mind. My preamp's phono stage measures less than 0.0006% THD; in comparison to the cartridge's distortion, this seems silly, but I'm still glad of it.

Mr. Klipsch seemed to think that an acoustically-suspended, direct radiator could be a reasonable trade-off in the Heresy. Of course, he thought 50-17k Hz was good enough. If I can upgrade drivers and crossover components to tweak spectral balance and clarity and to extend the range at both ends, well, I just about have nowhere to go but up. A louder (in the actual bass), deeper, stronger woofer seems an obvious tweak. Soon I will be trying a Titanium-domed tweeter driver that DEFINITELY goes up to 20 kHz--in fact its graph shows it within 3 dB from 7 kHz to 20 kHz, with a narrow 3.5 dB peak at around 19 kHz. I can hardly wait to try it.

Maybe someday I will own a completely horn-loaded Klipsch speaker, but for now, I will do anything I can afford to upgrade my Heresy's.

Remember; it's a hobby.

Antone

[Don Richard]

Distortion" is a measure of all discrepancy between the original source's signal and the reproduced signal. A speaker that fails to reproduce the lowest audible frequencies at or near the same volume level as the source signal is exhibiting a far more discernible and objectionable distortion (to me) than FM distortion

There is linear distortion and there is non-linear distortion. Generally when distortion is mentioned it is the of non-linear type. Whenever frequencies are present in the output that are not in the input signal, that is non-linear distortion. Some examples are harmonic distortion, IM distortion and slew rate distortion.

Linear distortions include differences in listening volume from the original performance, frequency response abberations, and time offset from playing a recording at some future time. No spurious frequencies are generated.

Most folks object to non-linearities than than those who object to missing information. The psychoacoustic mechanism fills in the missing parts of the sound, particularly bass information. We can actually recreate low notes that are not there from the harmonic structure of the sound, or we can manipulate certain harmonics of a sound and increase the apparent low bass volume that sound.

[BEC]

I was just playing around with a Klipsch ported industrial Heresy today. A customer sent it to be rebuilt. Anyway, I am not sure the bass is any lower than a standard Heresy, but man, this thing is LOUD. With a standard Heresy paired with this HIE, you can barely hear the standard Heresy. The way the crossover is set up, looks like they were going for about 104db, in other words, the crossover is set up exactly the same way that the Khorn and Lascalas Type AA crossover is set up.

Bob Crites

[ClaudeJ1]

I was just playing around with a Klipsch ported industrial Heresy today. A customer sent it to be rebuilt. Anyway, I am not sure the bass is any lower than a standard Heresy, but man, this thing is LOUD. With a standard Heresy paired with this HIE, you can barely hear the standard Heresy. The way the crossover is set up, looks like they were going for about 104db, in other words, the crossover is set up exactly the same way that the Khorn and Lascalas Type AA crossover is set up.

Bob Crites

I'm not suprised you heard the same as I heard years ago. The ported Heresy doesn't go as low as a standard Heresy since it's port was designed to increase output above 100 Hz.........so I remember being told. Plus, I think it has a different woofer with a much higher average efficiency in the higher band, like about 100 db/w. So with the port, it's 103db plus. combined with the higher BL product which tips the curve more towards 500 hz. rather than 50. It was definitely designed to be used wiht PA type subs.

I know Eminence makes woofers from 99-103 db/watt for guitars @ 8 ohms, so it would not have been a stretch for them to make a 4 ohm version of those optimized especially for Klipsch's Ported Heresy's to do 104 db efficiency as you observe.

[Guest " "]

My HIE's have k-42 woofers and k-55-M mids. Beisdes what ever the tune frequency is for the slot....I think the slotted version allows the woofer to breathe easier and that might have a factor in louder mid-bass.

[moray james]

have you considered the fact that the original Heresy mid horns have a disersion of 80 degrees horizontal and 40 degrees vertical? Tighter focus of the mid means less room interaction and an increase inthe precieved level of the mid range at the listening position. The mid will seem louder on this horn than it would with a wider patern horn. Nothing to do with mid bass but worth keeping in mind.Best regards Moray James.

[Antone]

Greetings, Fellow Klipsch Fans,

I have discovered another worthwhile Heresy 1 upgrade: titanium-diaphragm tweeter drivers that go all the way up to 20 kHz! They are cheap ($30 each) and require little in the way of crossover modification. The most difficult job is modifying the adapter plate (parts-express #264-322) to adapt the stock K77M aluminum horn to take the Eminence ASD 1001 screw-on driver (#290-525). This tweeter is slightly less efficient than the stock K77M, but that is compensated for very nicely by moving the lead attached to the T2A autotransformer's #3 tap from #3 to #4, yielding a 3 dB increase overall to the tweeter. With this new, smoother, higher-power-handling driver the 1.8 muF cap I have recommended for the K77M tweeter ought to be changed back to the stock 2 muF.

In my trials of different tweeters I found that it is necessary to keep the stock aluminum horn because of space constraints. These constraints also limit the diameter of the driver to 3.5" max. With these limitations there are few fitting alternatives for tweeter drivers. In fact only four tweeter drivers from parts-express even fit. And of these, two have titanium diaphragms; (the $30 phenolic diaphragmed one-Eminence APT 50- is not as good as the K77M.) I tried the Selenium D2500Ti-Nd at $84 each, though they were about as efficient as the K77M, they did not sound appreciably better than the K77M, (nor was their response curve as smooth as the Eminence ASD 1001). The last driver I found that would fit-RCF ND350, $140 each- has a polyester diaphragm; I did not try it, for it is way too expensive. Don't be fooled by the parts express description of the ASD 1001 in regard to its frequency response "2,500-19,000 Hz". The Eminence site response graph of this driver (http:www.eminence.com/pdf/ASD1001S.pdf) attached to their standard horn shows a very smooth response from 7,000 to 20,000Hz- within 3dB except for a narrow 3.5 dB spike at 18,600 Hz (somehow this spike pleases me a little, because it's so high.)

Bottom line: though limited to 17,000 Hz the K77M is hard to beat; if yours are okay, the Eminence ASD 1001 is the only one I found that is noticeably better. If you are handy and have the tools to alter the adapter plate and to move one wire in the crossover, it's nice to hear every bit of the crystal ring of good cymbals, triangles, metal strings, etc. It makes for...

Happy Listening.

Antone

[joeydingo]

Oh man, I thought this was all about the BASS, and I was just getting ready to chime in about getting a subwoofer. Now we've got tweeters that go way beyond what my last hearing test says I'll ever hear again!!!! I've read the thread until now, but I just have to give up...............

Antone, glad you're having a good time tweaking these and keeping everyone posted.

[davidcl]

Antone,

I'm new to this forum and have a pair of 1982 (I believe -- Y in the serial number) Heresy speakers -- original owner. They are in mint condition really as I've had them in my living room all these years and rarely listen to them. Not scratches whatever. I loved them when I had time to listen back in my 20s and before kids. I'm on the fence about selling them, but this forum has inspired my to maybe recondition them and see what I get. I'm relatively good at soldering and built my old amp from a kit back in the day. I'm interested in the upgrade you detailed -- and thanks for taking the time to do so. I think I might try just replacing all caps and using the poly. I'm wondering if I will be able to pull it off with just the instructions you have (replacing the right caps in the right places). Thoughts and/or guidance appreciated.

David

[cfelliot]

David,

The cap replacement is very easy. Get a kit from Bob Crites after you figure out if you have E or E2 crossovers: http://www.critesspeakers.com/prices-crossover_repair_kit.html

I had the caps and did it myself on 3 Heresy Is:

Old:

New:

[Antone]

Davidcl,

Thanks for your interest. I agree; the most cost-effective upgrades are changing out the capacitors (no need to worry about polarity of these caps) and installing the poly stuffing. The photo of the type "E" crossover contained in cfelliot's reply to your query is helpful, but I am betting that your 1982 Heresy's (if they're not Heresy II's) utilize the Type "E2" network, which contains three capacitors: the two "spam" cans (shown in cfelliot's reply to your post) plus one electrolytic capacitor, whose two leads connect to the two woofer output screws. There should be a faintly embossed "2" immediately to the right of the red "printed "E" on the crossover nameplate.

This is a Heresy I upgrade. This list comprises parts for both speakers. All components are available at parts-express.com .

Two Woofers part # 295-120

Two Tweeter Capacitors 1.8 muF part # 027-480 (These sound much sweeter & smoother than 2muF.)

Four Squawker (midrange horn) Capacitors: Two 33muF part # 027-592 and two 2muF part # 027-534

Two low-pass woofer inductors part # 255-820

Acoustic enclosure fiberfill part #260-330 (Divide evenly between the two speakers.)

It helps to be good at soldering, and it helps to have an LC meter part # 390-570 to fine tune the woofer inductors to 3.71mH and to measure the capacitance value of the Spam-can caps.

In each speaker's balancing network board there are two identical 2 muF "spam" (oval, aluminum) cans, one being the tweeter cap, and the other is in parallel with a (crappy) 33muF electrolytic and will yield a combined value of 35 muF. The spam can whose terminals yield a 35 muF capacitance is a squawker cap; the spam can that reads 2muF (and is connected to a tweeter output screw) is the tweeter cap,which is to be replaced with the 1.8 muF Jantzen Superior cap. Replace the 33muF electrolytic (It's located at the woofer output screws.) with the part # 027-592 . There are two open bracket choke-style inductors which look a lot like transformers; the low-pass inductor for the woofer has just two wires, and the other is the T2A autotransformer, which has many wires yielding overall attenuation in 3dB steps. Only one of these has ONLY two leads coming out of it; one of which goes to a woofer terminal on the barrier strip. This is the woofer inductor to be replaced with part #255-820 unwound to yield an Inductance of 3.71mH. (Hot glue can keep the coil from further unraveling). One last step is to replace the two 18 AWG wires from the woofer with two 14 AWG wires of the same exact length.The same goes for the wires from the back of the enclosure to the crossover ("balancing network").

If you want to improve your Heresy's relatively cheaply, you might replace only (all) the capacitors and fill the enclosures with the poly stuffing. Stuffing the cabinets makes a NOTICEABLE difference in the bass depth and overall cleanness. The much better caps WILL sweeten, clean and solidify the midrange and treble without changing the Klipschness.

Happy listening!

Antone

[davidcl]

Thanks much for replies. Looks like there are two ways to go. Anotone, can you describe what might be advantages (IYHO, of course) of going the route you did over the aforementioned crites kit. I'm interested in best sound, of course. Will likely do the baffling either way. Also, I know I'm stuck no matter, but which do you guys believe is the better crossover E2 or E. I think it means the mid-range is different too (right?). Just curious what I have. BTW, I have "Y" serial number and have found that means manufactured sometime in 1983. Ah, those were the days! I still remember when I picked these up. Couldn't believe the sound. Ready to start listening again and get these things back into action. Really glad to have found this forum.

David

[cfelliot]

The only real difference between the E and E2 is that the E2 adds a cap to the woofer section which changes the slope of the crossover. The coil may be different too, not sure, but it's all in the woofer circuit.

One thing to keep in mind is that the the K77 tweeter has limitations on the low end. Replacing the 2uf cap with a 1.8uf lowers the crossover point. Just my opinion, but if you intend to really drive these guys when you're done, I wouldn't change it unless you also replace the K77 with a CT125, also from Crites which can go lower.

All caps have a slightly different sound and you will get numerous opinions on what is best. I liked the Hovland MusicCaps, but alias they are no longer made.

As you can tell from my previous pictures, I used screw connect terminals when I replaced my caps. This affords and easy swap in the future and no soldering as you can just cut the old leads and re-strip the wires.

[Antone]

cfelliot,

Thanks for your input. Three minor points about the "E2"crossover: The 33 muF cap at the woofer output screws, which is in parallel with one of the 2muF spam cans for a total capacitance of 35 muF, actually acts as a high pass filter for the squawker. Another thing is that the 1.8 muF tweeter cap RAISES the crossover point compared to the 2 muF: at 8 Ohms, in a second order crossover 2 muF sets a high-pass point of 7000 Hz. My specified Superior Jantzen 1.8 muF cap sets a higher high-pass point of 7,777 Hz. This smooths out the transition from the top of the squawker's range to the bottom of the tweeter's range (less overlap at 5000 Hz). This makes for a less peaky upper midrange and actually decreases the total power going to the tweeter: No worries about over-driving the tweeter I believe that the Heresy's K77M tweeter is hard to beat, and only a titanium-diaphragmed driver (e.g. Eminence ASD 1001 or Selenium D2500Ti-Nd) improves on it. My 1.8 MuF tweeter cap is all that an undamaged stock Klipsch tweeter needs to improve its clarity and sweetness without major modifications.

Yes, you are right that the woofer low-pass inductor in the "E2" has a different value (4 mH) from the "E" coil (2.5mH).

By the way, your pictures show that you did a really nice job on your "E". You can upgrade your "E" to an "E2" simply by: swapping a 4 mH woofer low-pass coil (parts-express #266-922) in place of your 2.5 mH coil, installing a 33 muF polypropylene (#027-592) cap across the woofer output terminals,and reversing the polarity of the squawker output screws.

Happy listening