joessportster Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 I recently had an awakening of sorts. I love horn speakers and always have. Recently I was able to hear a couple drum cuts on a pair of urei 813c (jbl) studio monitors and I was awe struck by the shear impact of the drums. It was disconcerting to say the least I played those same tracks on my oris orpheans and the sound is there but the impact was lacking. Now I'm thinking would it be possiable to integrate the 2 have a horn top end with the impact presented by the urei ( I guess Cornwall is an attempt at this integration but I honestly don't recall the impact being this much) Does anyone else have experience with this ??? Were you able to solve it ??? This is in the midbass region so it's not a sub issue. What is the recognized standard range considered to be midbass ??? Joe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 What is the recognized standard range considered to be midbass ??? Try this: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joessportster Posted February 24, 2011 Author Share Posted February 24, 2011 Very helpful thank you very much. Confirmed alot of what I thought already. Joe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
russ69 Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 Mid-bass slam is present in some systems more than others. You need the right driver and you need a good 300wpc (sometimes less/sometimes more). I know on a large Magnepan (known for great mid-bass) you'll need near a kilowatt per channel to get a really big hit. At any rate it takes both the right speaker and the right power. You may be interested in the HSU Research mid-bass system. It's made specifically to address your issue. I've never heard it so I can't fully recommend it but it might be worth a look. Thanx, Russ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djk Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 "Slam" in the UREI is largely a function of the time-offset corrected design. If you corrected a Cornwall you would get similar results (I did with a KLF-30 type speaker). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 Recently I was able to hear a couple drum cuts on a pair of urei 813c (jbl) studio monitors and I was awe struck by the shear impact of the drums. It was disconcerting to say the least I played those same tracks on my oris orpheans and the sound is there but the impact was lacking. Now I'm thinking would it be possible to integrate the 2 have a horn top end with the impact presented by the urei ( I guess Cornwall is an attempt at this integration but I honestly don't recall the impact being this much...One of the inherent good things about direct radiating speakers is that even if all the drivers are mounted on the same surface baffle the whole speaker will be somewhat time-aligned. The only driver that will be lagging will likely be the woofer, and it is the least sensitive in terms of its relative position to achieve time alignment (i.e., wavelengths at lower frequencies are longer than higher frequencies, therefore a 1/4 wavelength alignment with the midrange and tweeter to the woofer is probably already achieved without resorting to active crossover delays). It is horn speakers that really suffer from time misalignment due to the differing length of the horns and the typical alignment of the horn mouths instead of the horn throats. This means that your horn speaker will sound odd on impulsive material if not time aligned. This could be what you are listening to. Of course, you could also be listening to your Oris's frequency response issues, too. Note that I do not know if your woofer is a direct radiator or a horn. Could you clarify your speaker configuration? I couldn't find a picture that showed the bass horn/drivers. Chris EDIT: I just posted after djk (Dennis's) post without first seeing his, so apparently he is saying something akin to what I said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joessportster Posted February 24, 2011 Author Share Posted February 24, 2011 I understand time alignment can be an issue but I played around some with crossover point ( on an active and I think a large issue I have is at cross point 240 hz I'm losing the initial impact of some notes which seems to effect overall feeling. My bass horns are a folded horn with a 12" driver. I think my next move is to get more cards and tweak the crossover points. Something else I knoticed is power / volume has a large effect on how I perceive the impact. This is actually fun to figure out and in the end should lead to a more satisfying system Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 One of the more interesting "not talked about subjects" here (if there are any of those... [8-)] ) is the FR of Klipsch's horn-loaded-bass speakers (i.e., Khorns, La Scalas, Belles, Jubilees) in the frequency band that you have identified above. If you look closely at the anechoic response of these products from about 80-200 Hz, you will see a non-flat response in this area for all of these products. Many here like that response. In fact, when I EQed my Jubs to be flatter in this band, the questions were "...why did you do that?...". I also added two tapped horn subs to get that last octave (17-31 Hz) that the Jub bins don't cover. This changed the sound dramatically--and for the better IMHO. However, if you don't have that bottom octave, the EQ the 80-200 Hz region downward really accentuates the lack of that bottom octave... Here is an in-room plot of my Jubs+tapped horn subs: the lighter-green curve shows the measured and non-EQed in-room response of the Jubs in their "false corners" formed by the side walls and the tapped horn subs, the red curve is non-EQed SPUDs-only (in the room's corners), and the dark green curve is my EQed room response for both. Note that the rapid fall-off below about 20 Hz is mainly due to side-wall flexing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark1101 Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 You knocked things back quite a lot. I had to do the something similar to properly integrate my Titan subs with MWMs....so I could just use below 50hz. Technically I could almost eliminate the MWMs if I wanted to but they are cleaner sounding than the Titans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 but they are cleaner sounding than the Titans.Same here: Jub bass bins are better sounding than the TH subs - so my crossing frequency is at 40 Hz - which also works with the HT mode setup. This has certain advantages in terms of audibility of TH dynamics (audibility of TH impulse artifacts due to precedence effects below 40 Hz is almost nil, IMHE).Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark1101 Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 I shouldn't have said the MWMs sound cleaner than the Titans. The Titans are extremely clean sounding and smooth as well. Excellent horn subs. It's just that the MWMs have a quality of sound about them that is just slightly more pleasing and a better match to the rest of the MCM-Grand system so I just use the Titans to fill in below 50hz. It sounds like you ran into the same situation with the Jub bins. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrapladm Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 I hate you guys and your grand "large," systems.[] But I think in the future I will end up going to one of these alrger systems for my bass needs. Jubs seem like they would have enough slam for me in a smaller package than the MCM or MWM.(Not sure what they are called) Mark how wide is your room in that avatar? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joessportster Posted February 27, 2011 Author Share Posted February 27, 2011 Mark. You mention Titan subs are these Edgar siesmics or another brand. I sold both my siesmic subs after seeing dr bruces notes on one of them. The urei 813c goes down to 40 hz flat then drops sharp the Edgar siesmics were tuned to 35 hz and then they drop sharply they are great for Edgar midbin's that cut off at 80 benefit from siesmics but The 5 hz difference between the siesmics and the urei just wasn't worth the cost. I plan to build subs as I kept my jbl. 18" drivers. I always felt the bass was the least important till recently. When done right the bass is a huge part of the overall presentation ( call me converted . Joe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSnyder Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 1rst I hear that Jubiles need SUBBS!!!!!!! Funny s wierd big as they look ? [:^)] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSnyder Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 Mark. You mention Titan subs are these Edgar siesmics or another brand. I sold both my siesmic subs after seeing dr bruces notes on one of them. The urei 813c goes down to 40 hz flat then drops sharp the Edgar siesmics were tuned to 35 hz and then they drop sharply they are great for Edgar midbin's that cut off at 80 benefit from siesmics but The 5 hz difference between the siesmics and the urei just wasn't worth the cost. I plan to build subs as I kept my jbl. 18" drivers. I always felt the bass was the least important till recently. When done right the bass is a huge part of the overall presentation ( call me converted . Joe 1 think you nay not of thougt about is heering pratecton when on you moto-bike hopefully you havent' loss to much highs but could expplain favertism to base frequinsies th you remark on . . . . . dont' be imbarrased because most to all men lose highs as they age get older = = = = ear muffs on moto-bike can may redoose dammaig Decibel (Loudness) Comparison Chart Here are some interesting numbers, collected from a variety of sources, that help one to understand the volume levels of various sources and how they can affect our hearing. Environmental Noise Weakest sound heard 0dB Whisper Quiet Library 30dB Normal conversation (3-5') 60-70dB Telephone dial tone 80dB City Traffic (inside car) 85dB Train whistle at 500', Truck Traffic 90dB Subway train at 200' 95dB Level at which sustained exposure may result in hearing loss 90 - 95dB Power mower at 3' 107dB Snowmobile, Motorcycle 100dB Power saw at 3' 110dB Sandblasting, Loud Rock Concert 115dB Pain begins 125dB Pneumatic riveter at 4' 125dB Even short term exposure can cause permanent damage - Loudest recommended exposure WITH hearing protection 140dB Jet engine at 100', Gun Blast 140dB Death of hearing tissue 180dB Loudest sound possible 194dB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juniper8 Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 Joe after hearing this "midbass slam " that you speak of, I compare all my listening experiences to my altec 604's which are very similar to the coax's in the urei 813c and nothing even comes close! My cornwalls dont come close, or my altec model 19's. The impact with some instruments in this region, can be so exact,clear,and intense that you almost can't believe what you are hearing. I hope you find away to integrate these components it would be an amazing speaker!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 1rst I hear that Jubilees need SUBS!!!!!!! Funny s weird big as they look ? Actually, PWK designed the Khorn and Jubilee (his Khorn-replacement design) to cover the range of a piano, with an eye toward accurate reproduction of pipe organ music. I believe that he thought that the last audible octave (16-32 Hz) would not be something that folks at home would like to reproduce, especially since it takes such high SPL to actually hear this octave. Also note that PWK was very aware of the size of his speakers and spent a considerable amount of his effort to minimize the size of them. In fact, his Khorn design was a marvel in the mid-40s when it came out due to its small size (although it certainly wasn't the first corner horn in existence). Both the Jubilee and the Khorn are very small as compared to the lowest wavelengths that they reproduce: I believe that point is often missed since most folks associate speakers with direct radiating drivers only. The problem with direct-radiating loudspeakers at low frequencies is the impedance mismatch of the driver to air, which is the reason why horn-loaded speakers are typically 15 dB more efficient than the same drivers being used as direct radiators, i.e., horns are ~50 times more efficient than direct radiators at these frequencies. This is also the reason why horn-loaded speakers have such low distortion (25 dB less, in fact): a horn-loaded driver's cone needs to only move a very small fraction of that from a direct radiator putting out the same SPL. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moray james Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 Dennis: that's interesting could you say what you did to the KLF30's to achieve this (electronicly or acoustically)? Best regards Moray James. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quiet_Hollow Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 A phase-linear EQ goes a long way to bring order from chaos in the crossover region. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joessportster Posted February 27, 2011 Author Share Posted February 27, 2011 Chris I only find distortion if you crank up the volume the urie is 96 db effecient and they really open up and sing at about 85-90db range measured at the listening posistion. These actually get painful if you go much higher in volume. Joe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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