Speaker Phase does matter

[jjennings2510]

Alright guys, so its been a long week of work for me. I'm still building up my main sitting area system. I purchased some RF-25s as surrounds for the 7s but I haven't heard them yet because I need a new receiver. I purchased an Integra 2ch amp that puts out 100wpc and let me tell you it really made the 7s come alive! Unfortunately my receiver doesn't have preouts so right now the amp is hooked up directly to my tv but even so it sounds way better than my receiver. I plan on getting some Parasound amps for the 7s and 25s up front and moving the Integra amp to the mancave to power the 82s. So I just want to thank you guys for causing me more money and making me curious as to how good floorstanders sound as surrounds. But enough about that. Let me get to the real reason I am posting this.

I decided I would manually setup the mancave system so I could see how much of a difference it would make compared to Audessey. So I purchased an analogue sound level meter, a tripod, and measuring tape. Well everything came in a couple of weeks ago but today is the first time I actually felt like using it. Now I've always had a calibration DVD (Avia II) for setting up my TVs but I never used the audio features since I didn't have a meter. Well first I ran the phase tests and believe it or not my surrounds were out of phase as well as my center! Only the Left and Right main were correct. Then I went through the level tests and calibrated everything to the 85db reference level. The needle didn't exactly stay on 85 but it was close enough. Moving just a little. Then I checked the speaker distances and Audessey was right on. Well after I finished setting up my system I turned on a movie and WOW! I thought my system sounded good before. Well somehow it rose to a new level! I think part of it has to do with the phase and I also think it has something to do with the levels. With Klipsch being so sensitive it set all of my speakers at -12db. Well after calibrating everything my system sounds even better. Everything sounds a lot clearer. Even my center. The clarity rose to all new levels! I definitely can't wait until the system up front is finished. I want to hear some properly setup 7s! Now I understand what you guys mean. Demos of speaker systems depends on how well the system is setup. I know its common sense but I didn't realize just how much of a difference it would make! Especially phase. My speakers were still working. It sounded good and I could've sworn I made sure I matched the polarity but I guess not! I think I'll manually setup my systems from now on.....with the help of Audessey of course. Audessey does a great job but tweaking makes it even better. While running the tests I found out I had to turn my sub up! Nothing wrong with more bass. So this weekend should be great! Get to enjoy my movies even more which i didn't think was possible. I know you vets have been doing this for years but to all the newbs out there. Invest in a sound meter and a calibration disc. Of course calibrating the tv makes a huge difference BUT the experience will be complete once you take the time to manually setup your sound too! Of course the automated systems will get you started. I use Avia II which is a great DVD. A ton of audio and video tests to run but there are other ones available on Amazon that are on Blu Ray.

So I think I'm finished with the mancave now. I know I've said that numerous times but I won't make anymore tweaks until I move the Integra amp back here. Anyways I'm about to go back to enjoying the playoffs! Have a great night guys!

[cornfedksboy]

Thanks for sharing that bit. That is something I will have to do as things get closer to complete in basement.

[dtel]

Well first I ran the phase tests and believe it or not my surrounds were out of phase as well as my center! Only the Left and Right main were correct.

It would probably even sound better with the audessey setting everything now that there in phase. I like the manually way like you did, it's a wonder the audessey didn't have a problem with the phase being messed up.

[jjennings2510]

Thanks for sharing that bit. That is something I will have to do as things get closer to complete in basement.

Yes its worth it and its good to double check everything to be sure its running the best that it can. I still can't believe 3 out of 5 speakers were out of phase

[jjennings2510]

Well first I ran the phase tests and believe it or not my surrounds were out of phase as well as my center! Only the Left and Right main were correct.

It would probably even sound better with the audessey setting everything now that there in phase. I like the manually way like you did, it's a wonder the audessey didn't have a problem with the phase being messed up.

Thats the same thing I was thinking but I'm too scared to mess up my hard earned settings! lol. I don't want it to reset all of my speakers to -12db. I guess I could write everything down. And as far as the phase goes I'm surprised too. Maybe the more advanced Audessey systems such as Audessey MultiXT 32check phase? Or maybe they don't. Not sure. But I mean it set it up the best it could. They were working and sounded good, lol. But yes it sounds way better now. I'm a manual guy too now but as I said I will still use Audessey as a starting point and go from there. I'm just sad my system up front won't be finished for awhile. Which means my trusty sound meter will start collecting dust. I hate it when my gadgets collect dust!

[dtel]

It doesn't take much to make a big difference.

The problem is until you change something that's not right, you really don't know what your missing. [8-)]

I am sure this bird nest I have behind everything could be a lot better, I don't know what's going on back there anymore. It's a 6.1 and separate 2 ch all from the same area, and they share a couple of parts. It works great but you have me wondering about things. [:S]

[Heritage_Head]

Alright guys, so its been a long week of work for me. I'm still building up my main sitting area system. I purchased some RF-25s as surrounds for the 7s but I haven't heard them yet because I need a new receiver. I purchased an Integra 2ch amp that puts out 100wpc and let me tell you it really made the 7s come alive! Unfortunately my receiver doesn't have preouts so right now the amp is hooked up directly to my tv but even so it sounds way better than my receiver. I plan on getting some Parasound amps for the 7s and 25s up front and moving the Integra amp to the mancave to power the 82s. So I just want to thank you guys for causing me more money and making me curious as to how good floorstanders sound as surrounds. But enough about that. Let me get to the real reason I am posting this.

I decided I would manually setup the mancave system so I could see how much of a difference it would make compared to Audessey. So I purchased an analogue sound level meter, a tripod, and measuring tape. Well everything came in a couple of weeks ago but today is the first time I actually felt like using it. Now I've always had a calibration DVD (Avia II) for setting up my TVs but I never used the audio features since I didn't have a meter. Well first I ran the phase tests and believe it or not my surrounds were out of phase as well as my center! Only the Left and Right main were correct. Then I went through the level tests and calibrated everything to the 85db reference level. The needle didn't exactly stay on 85 but it was close enough. Moving just a little. Then I checked the speaker distances and Audessey was right on. Well after I finished setting up my system I turned on a movie and WOW! I thought my system sounded good before. Well somehow it rose to a new level! I think part of it has to do with the phase and I also think it has something to do with the levels. With Klipsch being so sensitive it set all of my speakers at -12db. Well after calibrating everything my system sounds even better. Everything sounds a lot clearer. Even my center. The clarity rose to all new levels! I definitely can't wait until the system up front is finished. I want to hear some properly setup 7s! Now I understand what you guys mean. Demos of speaker systems depends on how well the system is setup. I know its common sense but I didn't realize just how much of a difference it would make! Especially phase. My speakers were still working. It sounded good and I could've sworn I made sure I matched the polarity but I guess not! I think I'll manually setup my systems from now on.....with the help of Audessey of course. Audessey does a great job but tweaking makes it even better. While running the tests I found out I had to turn my sub up! Nothing wrong with more bass. So this weekend should be great! Get to enjoy my movies even more which i didn't think was possible. I know you vets have been doing this for years but to all the newbs out there. Invest in a sound meter and a calibration disc. Of course calibrating the tv makes a huge difference BUT the experience will be complete once you take the time to manually setup your sound too! Of course the automated systems will get you started. I use Avia II which is a great DVD. A ton of audio and video tests to run but there are other ones available on Amazon that are on Blu Ray.

So I think I'm finished with the mancave now. I know I've said that numerous times but I won't make anymore tweaks until I move the Integra amp back here. Anyways I'm about to go back to enjoying the playoffs! Have a great night guys!

Audessey works pretty good I run ES so no audessey but I have had it before. The levels that any auto set up gives to me should always be moved to around 0 to start then up from there unless your surrounds are right next to you. Why the auto set ups turn everything way down is beyond me. Manual for level is always best I use both the meter and my ears for level because that’s more a taste thing. Like how much surrounds you want is going to be different from other people. I like a lot so I run them a few db hotter. Not a fan to just set everything the same level db (like set to 75db) it’s a good start but never ends up staying there. One thing I’m a little lost on didn’t your audessey auto test tell you that your speakers were out of phase? And 3 out of 5 that seems fishy to not get your + and – right on 3 out of 5 I would double check that with your cables. Not the test.

[jjennings2510]

It doesn't take much to make a big difference.

The problem is until you change something that's not right, you really don't know what your missing.

I am sure this bird nest I have behind everything could be a lot better, I don't know what's going on back there anymore. It's a 6.1 and separate 2 ch all from the same area, and they share a couple of parts. It works great but you have me wondering about things.

I want a separate 2 ch system as well but luckily it will be in a different area. But I think my system got "messed up" because I was constantly changing out speakers and upgrading. Thats why I'm trying to wait until I get everything before I tackle the system up front. I only want to set it up once compared to the numerous time the cave has been setup. But there is nothing wrong with double checking your system one day when you feel like it! The phase tests and levels are pretty quick to check. Now if you actually have to tweak then thats a different story, lol. But you can't blame it on me 100%......I'm sure you've been thinking about messing with the system for awhile now. HT guys are constant tweakers!

[jjennings2510]

Audessey works pretty good I run ES so no audessey but I have had it before. The levels that any auto set up gives to me should always be moved to around 0 to start then up from there unless your surrounds are right next to you. Why the auto set ups turn everything way down is beyond me. Manual for level is always best I use both the meter and my ears for level because that’s more a taste thing. Like how much surrounds you want is going to be different from other people. I like a lot so I run them a few db hotter. Not a fan to just set everything the same level db (like set to 75db) it’s a good start but never ends up staying there. One thing I’m a little lost on didn’t your audessey auto test tell you that your speakers were out of phase? And 3 out of 5 that seems fishy to not get your + and – right on 3 out of 5 I would double check that with your cables. Not the test.

I'm not sure why either. I just figured it was because the speakers are so efficient? When I had my Sony bookshelfs and other cheap speakers it calibrated all of them correctly. Each speaker had varying levels. As I said my system sounded good. I was just surprised to see everything at -12. The lowet level you can set on the AVR. As far as phase nope it gave me no indication that they were out of phase. I mean they were still working so idk. Maybe it only gives errors when the speakers don't give any sound at all? And I would check the connections but I also have a bird's nest of wires behind my entertainment center. So its gonna be a hassle to pull out my AVR. I may eventually check but I mean I did what the tests said do and I def had two different sequences of sounds that corrected once I switched the wires. Its possible tho that I may have switched 3 speakers by accident. I've been swapping out stuff so much and I'm always anxious to hook up new speakers so maybe I did switch the wires. Idk. But for now I am satisfied. And I def agree on the levels. People like different things. My cave is small and cozy so I didn't have to tweak any levels after I set them to 85db. My surrounds are pretty close so they're already loud enough for me. But I like to feel explosions so I turned up my sub a little more. Different strokes for different folks. Nonetheless I'm satisfied. Everything sounds better. My soundstage is better and my center has never sounded crisper. Even on low volume now I can still clearly hear it without using "night" modes. But as I said I don't know if its bc of phase or bc I turned up the levels or a mixture of both. But I'm done blabbing. And this may sound like a dumb question but what is ES? A sound mode?

[Heritage_Head]

Audessey works pretty good I run ES so no audessey but I have had it before. The levels that any auto set up gives to me should always be moved to around 0 to start then up from there unless your surrounds are right next to you. Why the auto set ups turn everything way down is beyond me. Manual for level is always best I use both the meter and my ears for level because that’s more a taste thing. Like how much surrounds you want is going to be different from other people. I like a lot so I run them a few db hotter. Not a fan to just set everything the same level db (like set to 75db) it’s a good start but never ends up staying there. One thing I’m a little lost on didn’t your audessey auto test tell you that your speakers were out of phase? And 3 out of 5 that seems fishy to not get your + and – right on 3 out of 5 I would double check that with your cables. Not the test.

I'm not sure why either. I just figured it was because the speakers are so efficient? When I had my Sony bookshelfs and other cheap speakers it calibrated all of them correctly. Each speaker had varying levels. As I said my system sounded good. I was just surprised to see everything at -12. The lowet level you can set on the AVR. As far as phase nope it gave me no indication that they were out of phase. I mean they were still working so idk. Maybe it only gives errors when the speakers don't give any sound at all? And I would check the connections but I also have a bird's nest of wires behind my entertainment center. So its gonna be a hassle to pull out my AVR. I may eventually check but I mean I did what the tests said do and I def had two different sequences of sounds that corrected once I switched the wires. Its possible tho that I may have switched 3 speakers by accident. I've been swapping out stuff so much and I'm always anxious to hook up new speakers so maybe I did switch the wires. Idk. But for now I am satisfied. And I def agree on the levels. People like different things. My cave is small and cozy so I didn't have to tweak any levels after I set them to 85db. My surrounds are pretty close so they're already loud enough for me. But I like to feel explosions so I turned up my sub a little more. Different strokes for different folks. Nonetheless I'm satisfied. Everything sounds better. My soundstage is better and my center has never sounded crisper. Even on low volume now I can still clearly hear it without using "night" modes. But as I said I don't know if its bc of phase or bc I turned up the levels or a mixture of both. But I'm done blabbing. And this may sound like a dumb question but what is ES? A sound mode?

No problem I babble all the time. ES is a sony line like pioneer elite. What they consider there Elevated Standard. It doesn’t use audessey it uses a sony technology. Audessey is probably a little better does more things. If you’re just going to run the test and let it be audessey would definitely be the better of the two. Have you ran an auto test again sense you flipped the wires? When you run the test and it’s done look at the picture and look around at the speakers in the picture it should say above or below in red (mine is red might be different) out of phase. Just to see flip your center (or whatever is easiest) run the test and look for it. Other thing you can try is on your sub flip it out of phase (if it’s at 0 flip it to 180) run the test and after the auto test is done look at the sub and see it should tell you that it’s out of phase then you will know what it looks like. I should have asked this before lol does you avr have on screen set up (tv)? And one other thing if your audessey set any speaker (other than sub) at -12 something’s not right. Remember two that you thought it sounded good before and it was out of phase so there still might be a few tweaks to make even though it sounds amazing now. []

[wuzzzer]

The levels that any auto set up gives to me should always be moved to around 0 to start then up from there unless your surrounds are right next to you. Why the auto set ups turn everything way down is beyond me. Manual for level is always best I use both the meter and my ears for level because that’s more a taste thing. Like how much surrounds you want is going to be different from other people. I like a lot so I run them a few db hotter.

Auto setups turn down the output level of most Klipsch speakers because of their highly sensitive design. An automatic setup such as Audyssey calibrates everything so that -0- on the volume level is reference level. Turning up the output level of the speakers does absolutely nothing except make the speakers play louder at the same volume level on the receiver. It doesn't make the receiver put out more power or raise the maximum output level of the speakers.

[Heritage_Head]

The levels that any auto set up gives to me should always be moved to around 0 to start then up from there unless your surrounds are right next to you. Why the auto set ups turn everything way down is beyond me. Manual for level is always best I use both the meter and my ears for level because that’s more a taste thing. Like how much surrounds you want is going to be different from other people. I like a lot so I run them a few db hotter.

Auto setups turn down the output level of most Klipsch speakers because of their highly sensitive design. An automatic setup such as Audyssey calibrates everything so that -0- on the volume level is reference level. Turning up the output level of the speakers does absolutely nothing except make the speakers play louder at the same volume level on the receiver. It doesn't make the receiver put out more power or raise the maximum output level of the speakers.

Yes I have read that as well about it moving everything so that 0 will be reference level. However even with the high sensitivity of the speakers to set them at -12 (in his case the lowest possible setting of the speakers) tells me something is a little off somewhere. And most people will tell you they hit reference levels (80-85db) at about the -15 to -20 areas even with all the speakers set to 0 or less. So that part has always left me a little unconvinced that it does indeed set them so that 0 will be reference level. If I turned my volume to 0 it would easily be hitting the 115-120db range maybe louder. (Best guess could always check) don’t think my ears could take it though. I have used audessey with the denon 3808 and just think that part is a little off. I’m sure there are a lot of different opinions on this though. The 2^nd part about the volume just being louder is 100% true. And there is no real advantage to having it at 0 over say -5. Zero is just where I start sorry if I made it sound like one way was somehow better than another. Just giving a reference point to the way I approach setting stuff up after the auto set up is done. There are normally 3 different levels (front/center/rears) the middle levels I will set to 0 then move the others accordingly before I start doing testing buy ears and using the meter. One thing I will say on the level though and maybe others can give their experience. If I put all my speakers at say -12 then turned up the volume to say like 0 or even like +5 and play a blu ray then pause it and listen to the level of hiss coming from the speakers. Now I use an emo amp and a 2k avr so not really the top of the line gear but to me there’s a little more hiss then if I set all the speakers levels to say 0 and turn up the volume to -15. I’m sure with better gear that wouldn’t be an issue.

[Rudy81]

Reference level for Audyssey is 75dB. When you run Audyssey, it attempts to set every speaker so that when your volume control is at 0, you are getting 75dB SPL. This level is used in order to recreate the film reference calibration. If you like to change the levels to suit your listening preference of the various speakers, that's certainly your choice, but the idea is to recreate the sound setup the film producers intended you to hear.

Since Klipsch speakers are very efficient when compared to most home audio systems, we often run into a problem where Audyssey hits the -12dB trim limit. The problem with that is that you have no idea if your speaker is set at the correct level or if it is still way off and Audyssey has hit the -12dB wall. When I ran Khorns in my room, I had to use attenuators with my home audio amps to give Audyssey a chance to set the speakers to the correct level. At the time, I did not have amps that had sensitivity controls as my pro amps do now. Some home amps do have sensitivity controls that will allow you to reduce the sensitivity on the amp, Parasound is one of those manufacturers. With those amps, you can reduce the sensitivity of the amp and allow Audyssey more control over your speaker if you are hitting the -12dB setting.

When testing your subwoofer, it will always seem to you to be 'softer' than we all like. But, I can assure you that when a movie plays, it will more than meet the requirements. In some cases, if you boost the sub output to suit your listening taste during the test, you will find the sub bottoming out during movies that really push the sub. In the long run, you will end up having to replace the sub.

I find it very puzzling that Audyssey did not pick up on three speakers out of phase. Both my built in Integra Audyssey MultiEQ and my Audyssey Pro Kit will tell you if you have a speaker out of phase. There are a few speaker designs that will confuse Audyssey and can show phase errors where none exist, but that is not a common issue with Klipsch speakers. In some other cases, speaker room interactions can also cause incorrectly reported phase errors. But generally speaking, Audyssey should catch that kind of problem. I would certainly take the time ensure all my wiring is correct. If you have Heritage speakers and have after market crossovers, I would certainly check those as well.

In any event, a properly setup Audyssey system will 'immerse' you in the movie. If you are 'aware' that your effects speakers are playing, I suggest they are not set correctly. That can be distracting, and the idea is to transport the audience 'into' the movie. So, doing the work to set it up correctly is well worth the effort.

[Heritage_Head]

Reference level for Audyssey is 75dB. When you run Audyssey, it attempts to set every speaker so that when your volume control is at 0, you are getting 75dB SPL. This level is used in order to recreate the film reference calibration. If you like to change the levels to suit your listening preference of the various speakers, that's certainly your choice, but the idea is to recreate the sound setup the film producers intended you to hear.

Since Klipsch speakers are very efficient when compared to most home audio systems, we often run into a problem where Audyssey hits the -12dB trim limit. The problem with that is that you have no idea if your speaker is set at the correct level or if it is still way off and Audyssey has hit the -12dB wall. When I ran Khorns in my room, I had to use attenuators with my home audio amps to give Audyssey a chance to set the speakers to the correct level. At the time, I did not have amps that had sensitivity controls as my pro amps do now. Some home amps do have sensitivity controls that will allow you to reduce the sensitivity on the amp, Parasound is one of those manufacturers. With those amps, you can reduce the sensitivity of the amp and allow Audyssey more control over your speaker if you are hitting the -12dB setting.

When testing your subwoofer, it will always seem to you to be 'softer' than we all like. But, I can assure you that when a movie plays, it will more than meet the requirements. In some cases, if you boost the sub output to suit your listening taste during the test, you will find the sub bottoming out during movies that really push the sub. In the long run, you will end up having to replace the sub.

I find it very puzzling that Audyssey did not pick up on three speakers out of phase. Both my built in Integra Audyssey MultiEQ and my Audyssey Pro Kit will tell you if you have a speaker out of phase. There are a few speaker designs that will confuse Audyssey and can show phase errors where none exist, but that is not a common issue with Klipsch speakers. In some other cases, speaker room interactions can also cause incorrectly reported phase errors. But generally speaking, Audyssey should catch that kind of problem. I would certainly take the time ensure all my wiring is correct. If you have Heritage speakers and have after market crossovers, I would certainly check those as well.

In any event, a properly setup Audyssey system will 'immerse' you in the movie. If you are 'aware' that your effects speakers are playing, I suggest they are not set correctly. That can be distracting, and the idea is to transport the audience 'into' the movie. So, doing the work to set it up correctly is well worth the effort.

I agree that it’s strange that 3 out 5 are out of phase I would trust Audyssey over the other phase test you’re using. As far as hearing the surrounds or turning up the bass that’s just all taste no one should be held to what Audyssey thinks is best. Even if it makes it closer to what the movie was made to sound like. Part of having a home theater is being able to have it as close to how we want it. Audyssey is far from perfect no disrespect to Audyssey(I’m going to get crushed for this lol) but it’s a good starting point and great for people who don’t have a lot of other tools or knowledge on setting it up. Definitely not the end all.

And I’m definitely not saying that people that use it would not have a lot of knowledge or other tools I used it it’s a great tool.

When Audyssey gets to a point where you can put in a blu ray download it to the a hard drive built into a avr examine the information then calibrate your speakers to that movie set up and adjust it to your room then that would be a set up that we could live by.

[dtel]

When Audyssey gets to a point where you can put in a blu ray download it to the a hard drive built into a avr examine the information then calibrate your speakers to that movie set up and adjust it to your room then that would be a set up that we could live by.

It will probably happen, and would be great if it was done well. [Y]

[jjennings2510]

Alright. Honestly I think the phase wasn't detected bc I don't have an onscreen setup. I have an Onkyo 507.....It was the first venture I made upgrading my HTiB system. So I thought AVRs really put out the wattage they said and I didn't think I would ever go the separates route etc. So I got the 507. Now this was also before I started using Amazon. I've always used ebay for stuff but at the time the ebay prices were around the same as store prices. Got the 507 for $300 while the 607 was $250 more in the store. Well I didn't think I needed preouts etc so I said screw it. Of course a few months later I see the 607 for a few bucks more on Amazon......then I decided to start building my system with the speakers that really impressed me when I heard them play during a store movie night (Klipsch) and so on and so forth. After that point I started researching things and saw its always good to go higher. Even if you don't think you will use the features. The 507 is an entry level AVR. A great unit though for a bedroom system. But it has no preouts, no onscreen setup and the basic Audessey so I'm guessing thats why it didn't detect the phase issue. Good news is I still love the AVR and it will be going in the bedroom. Bad news is basic stuff such as phase isn't detected. But I still feel as though the basic Audessey is still great. With me being a noob it was very easy to use and had my system sound great at the time....but now that I'm into manual setup it sounds even better. Now once I finish the front and run the setup on a processor that has Audessey MultiXT 32 then that'll be a true test IMHO since it uses a more advanced setup system. I'll expect it to detect phase etc. So I am baffled that the system didn't know I had 3 out of phase speakers BUT not surprised.....

[dtel]

Hey the one I use does not have any automatic audessey kind of stuff ! Yamaha RX V730, as far as htr receivers go it is a senior citizen but it does have on screen display and preouts, but no settings like true hd or anything for bluray or hdmi.