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[Guest David H]

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[Guest David H]

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[Guest David H]

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[Guest David H]

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[Guest " "]

amazing piece of work....

[Guest David H]

Thanks Fritz.

Dave

[angusruler]

beauty! very nice work.

[whatever55]

For this test, I have built a redesigned Eliptrac horn that will fit the cutout of the Fc-260.

The TAD driver is basically the Ferrari of horn drivers, and rectangular cross section Tractrix limits the HF extension the TAD is capable of.

Here is a shot of the standard rear mount Eliptrac next to the much larger FC-260 replacement.

So the 402 limits the TAD ?

Then the 402 would also limit other drivers as well ( EVDH1A, K69 etc )

Have you listened to them ???

[Guest David H]

Deleted.

[seti]

So the 402 limits the TAD ?

Then the 402 would also limit other drivers as well ( EVDH1A, K69 etc )

Have you listened to them ???

The K-402 is not a pure Tractrix flair, it's Conical with a Tractrix flair at the mouth, therefore does not apply.

BTW, I edited my original post to reflect Edgar style rectangular cross section Tractrix horns.

Never had the pleasure of hearing a properly set up K-402.

Dave

I think I read it wrong. Do you mean conical throat and tractrix to the outside flare?

I've read several articles lately where they describe the practice of mixing horn flares from the throat to the rest of the horn in various combinations. This may be common practice and I just haven't noticed. I'm still researching.

I've heard both the 402 and 510 sound incredible and I've heard them on many occasions. The last time I heard them was at JC's with his tractrix bass bin and it was killer. The MCM grand top hat is top notch.

[Guest David H]

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[Guest David H]

I am deleting these posts, because it is impossible to discuss modifying a Jubilee without debating the K402 and K-510.

[whatever55]

I am deleting these posts, because it is impossible to discuss modifying a Jubilee without debating the K402 and K-510.

Just part of the discussion... Like when we talk about modifking a Khorn or Belle... Not good or bad or anything to take offense at.

[seti]

This being the klipsch forum and the Jubilee is difficult not to mention 402 and 510 but for good reason. These two horns together recently caught me off guard with their quality and coverage and deserve mention. You should give those horns a good listen. However I think it is also wide open since one can buy a Jubilee bass bin from klipsch at a great price. It is a diy'ers dream. You don't have to limit to Jubilee but many bass horns that need hf horns and not just klipsch. There are tons of horns and configuration options. I could be happy with either of those klipsch horns or any of the diy tractrix horns I've heard over the last couple years which are also incredible.

[Fjd]

I came in late and now I’m disappointed in the direction that this thread took in that I may have missed [:#]useful information in this “Updates & Modifications” thread for a well-known Jubilee-like DIY project with a DIY tophat for the DIY type of person that likes to experiment or can’t afford a fully engineered solution.

Although, had this thread continued, some may argue this thread belonged in the “garage sale” section, I’m not entirely sure I would disagree if we could still have constructive debates of technical merits; however, some of us (including me) "are aware" and “appreciative” that there are avenues for the non-DIY person (I don’t have facilities to build my own horn this year and have bought the DIY products in the past) that may be interested in performing a modification (when we attack these threads are we implying that "if you are not technical, you have no right to modifications and must only buy a fully engineered solution"???).

I’ve always looked forward to the constructive criticisms and technical contributions of many on this forum as very valuable to the "updates & modifications" forum (i.e. we are not in the 2-channel audio or technical questions forums debating the merits of fully engineered solutions) and the contributions of many typically help a DIY person to understand the pros and cons in developing their own design goals.

Now my dilemma is that I do not know everything that was discussed and I now have to decide (without the benefit of pictures or the full text) what may have happened to this thread as I evaluate the remnants of this thread.[]

Description of Straw Man???[]

The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person's actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position. This sort of "reasoning" has the following pattern:

1. Person A has position X (comparing rectangular tractrix flare to elliptical tractrix flare since we are assuming that the “rectangular cross section Tractrix limits the HF extension the TAD is capable of” and the elliptical tractrix flare may allow more HF extension of the TAD).
2. Person B presents position Y, which can be a distorted version of X (“So the 402 limits the TAD?”).
3. Person B attacks position Y (“Then the 402 would also limit other drivers as well ( EVDH1A, K69 etc ).....Have you listened to them ???”).
4. Therefore X is false/incorrect/flawed.

This sort of "reasoning" is fallacious because attacking a distorted version of a position simply does not constitute an attack on the position itself. One might as well expect an attack on a poor drawing of a person to hurt the person.

Description of Red Herring???[^o)]

A Red Herring is a fallacy in which an irrelevant topic is presented in order to divert attention from the original issue. The basic idea is to "win" an argument by leading attention away from the argument and to another topic. This sort of "reasoning" has the following form:

1. Topic A is under discussion (comparing rectangular tractrix flare to elliptical tractrix flare since we are assuming that the “rectangular cross section Tractrix limits the HF extension the TAD is capable of” and the elliptical tractrix flare may allow more HF extension of the TAD).
2. Topic B (“So the 402 limits the TAD?.....Then the 402 would also limit other drivers as well ( EVDH1A, K69 etc ).....Have you listened to them ???”) is introduced under the guise of being relevant to topic A (when topic B is actually not relevant to topic A).
3. Topic A is abandoned (GotHover gets frustrated and deletes all of his posts as thread goes off-topic and Topic B is rationalized as “Just part of the discussion... Like when we talk about modifying a Khorn or Belle... Not good or bad or anything to take offense at”).

This sort of "reasoning" is fallacious because merely changing the topic of discussion hardly counts as an argument against a claim.

Did something else happen??? Was this a "sink and destroy" mission or perhaps just a misunderstanding of the objective of the thread??? Any thoughts???

Edit: I would really like to know if the rectangular cross section Tractrix does limit the HF extension that the TAD mid range driver is capable of and if the elliptical tractrix flare really does allow more HF extension of the TAD (and if so, how much)[8-|]

[Rudy81]

However I think it is also wide open since one can buy a Jubilee bass bin from klipsch at a great price. It is a diy'ers dream.

What's a ballpark 'great price'?

[greg928gts]

However I think it is also wide open since one can buy a Jubilee bass bin from klipsch at a great price. It is a diy'ers dream.

What's a ballpark 'great price'?

I paid $4,600 for my pair of Klipsch Jubilee bass horns, and that included shipping. That was a few years ago, I don't know if prices have gone up since then. They should have.

Greg

[Coytee]

I would really like to know if the rectangular cross section Tractrix does limit the HF extension that the TAD mid range driver is capable of and if the elliptical tractrix flare really does allow more HF extension of the TAD (and if so, how much)

I don't pretend to know the answer to your specific question. That said, I seem to hold a memory where someone asked Roy directly (in my presence) why the 402 was a rectangle instead of perhaps round. I seem to recall his answer being they used the shapes they used to help control the sound bouncing to the ceiling and floor. Implying that a round horn would not exhibit as 'straight' of output as the squarish horns. I don't think the actual frequency response of the driver had a thing to do with it, meaning, (per my understanding of what my ears heard) the shape of the horn would not alter the frequency response. It might affect the shape of it it but you would still have the same HF extension output.

That's my take on what I heard.

[Chris A]

Edit: I would really like to know if the rectangular cross section Tractrix does limit the HF extension that the TAD mid range driver is capable of and if the elliptical tractrix flare really does allow more HF extension of the TAD (and if so, how much)

I'm not sure what model of TAD driver that is being tossed about here - is it the TD-4001, TD-4002, etc.? Note that these drivers are capable of ~400Hz-20Khz output in home application (i.e., non-commercial use), so I'm not sure that I'd call it a "midrange driver". I'd call it a high-frequency driver, as in context of a 2-way speaker system used in a home speaker system.

I believe that your question itself gives me a bit of heartburn because I believe that to answer your question a couple of assumptions have to be made clearer:

1) Are you assuming on-axis hf response without EQ of the TAD/horn combination (K-402 vs. an "elliptical tractrix" horn that Dave Harris has made and is apparently selling here)? This presupposes that you are not interested in its off-axis response curve. Is this correct?

2) Are you assuming that any output (i.e., diaphragm breakup modes included) of said driver at its upper-most extreme also coincides with "high frequency extension"?

3) Are you driving using a linear, low-output-impedance amplifier or a tube-type amplifier? Are you including harmonic distortion as part of the "high frequency extension"?

All of the answers to these assumptions will affect the answer that you get to your question.

The best answer that I can give you is that compression drivers will generally have a characteristic output energy vs. frequency at some input drive level (electrical current dependent), ignoring feedback energy that is inherent in the horn/driver/amplifier/cable system. If you collapse that hf energy into a smaller output pattern, the SPL on-axis will be greater than if you are using a constant-coverage or constant-directivity horn. But I believe that you will also be taking away from the "goodness" and desirability of the listening experience.

Chris [8-|]

[Fjd]

Edit: I would really like to know if the rectangular cross section Tractrix does limit the HF extension that the TAD mid range driver is capable of and if the elliptical tractrix flare really does allow more HF extension of the TAD (and if so, how much)

I'm not sure what model of TAD driver that is being tossed about here - is it the TD-4001, TD-4002, etc.? Note that these drivers are capable of ~400Hz-20Khz output in home application (i.e., non-commercial use), so I'm not sure that I'd call it a "midrange driver". I'd call it a high-frequency driver, as in context of a 2-way speaker system used in a home speaker system.

I believe that your question itself gives me a bit of heartburn because I believe that to answer your question a couple of assumptions have to be made clearer:

1) Are you assuming on-axis hf response without EQ of the TAD/horn combination (K-402 vs. an "elliptical tractrix" horn that Dave Harris has made and is apparently selling here)? This presupposes that you are not interested in its off-axis response curve. Is this correct?

2) Are you assuming that any output (i.e., diaphragm breakup modes included) of said driver at its upper-most extreme also coincides with "high frequency extension"?

3) Are you driving using a linear, low-output-impedance amplifier or a tube-type amplifier? Are you including harmonic distortion as part of the "high frequency extension"?

All of the answers to these assumptions will affect the answer that you get to your question.

The best answer that I can give you is that compression drivers will generally have a characteristic output energy vs. frequency at some input drive level (electrical current dependent), ignoring feedback energy that is inherent in the horn/driver/amplifier/cable system. If you collapse that hf energy into a smaller output pattern, the SPL on-axis will be greater than if you are using a constant-coverage or constant-directivity horn. But I believe that you will also be taking away from the "goodness" and desirability of the listening experience.

Chris

Chris, I would start a thread, but until I’m in a situation where I could properly monitor it, the exercise seemed pointless and I had hoped to gain some additional insight in this thread. Also, in my current situation I do not have access in the near-term to measurement tools.

However, I’m looking at mostly on-axis listening and run mostly tube amplifiers (but do have three clone First Watt amps ‘F-3, F-4, & F-5’ in the works this summer and fall).

I’m specifically interested in what the approximate ±3dB frequency response range is on the various wood tractrix horns under discussion with TAD TD-4001 or TAD TD-4002 (diaphragms are the same, but motor structure may be different due to Alnico vs. Neodymium magnets and I have access to both) with no EQ.

I would also like to understand where the secondary resonances and break-up modes are to cut in a HF driver before that point and still maximize the approximate ±3dB frequency response range of the TAD/horn combination.

I actually have a 402 project that will be on the horizon, but that is for another day.[H]

Thanks!