Triode Pete Posted July 7, 2011 Share Posted July 7, 2011 I have a bit of Audio Nervosa lately and wondered if there would be any Sonic BENEFIT in changing out the caps (2 microFarad & 13 microFarad) on my Type A crossovers on my 1974 K-horns. The crossovers are Bob Crites replacement Type A's with the older GE brand motor caps (oil filled?) with a tolerance of +/- 6%. I know Bob C uses Sonicaps now... Has anyone tried any of the expensive exotic caps (Duelunds / V-Caps, etc.)? What's your experiences on the Type A X-over? Thanks in advance, Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arash Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 as you said crossovers are from Bob so they ought to be under 10 years, it's needless to change the caps I have a type AA over 35 years (sound good) but Bob suggests to recap them and I'm listening Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Digitaldad Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 No experience with type A but noticed a huge improvement with the Crites A/4500. [] Your Crites crossovers should have a serial number. Email Bob and ask him about changing caps. Bob has always been prompt in replying with good advice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Louis Bartay Posted July 9, 2011 Share Posted July 9, 2011 Have you looked at ALK Engineering.com Al has some very advanced cross overs for most Heritage Speakers. I use Bob Crites and they sound like New again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jannegard1 Posted July 9, 2011 Share Posted July 9, 2011 hello you can use bobs caps i have jantzen caps i my type a crossovers i like them but bay bob tweeters and get 4500hz that is the best in my ear for klipschorns[] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triode Pete Posted July 12, 2011 Author Share Posted July 12, 2011 hello you can use bobs caps i have jantzen caps i my type a crossovers i like them but bay bob tweeters and get 4500hz that is the best in my ear for klipschorns I'd like to keep the drivers stock, especially my alnico magnet tweeter... my system sounds great with the Crites Type A with GE caps; I just have an itch to try better caps to see what type of change I'll hear. From some crazy audiophile friends of mine, they swear by Duelund caps for loudspeaker crossovers... BIG BUCKS, though... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djk Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 A set of those for a Klipschorn would cost more than my last car did. Duelund VSF Silver Capacitors Order Code capacitance (μF) Body dimension H x W x D (mm) Price exc. vat Duelund VSFAG - Duelund VSF Silver Capacitors, 200Vdc VSFAG-010*** 0.1 5 x 35 x 45 £327.80 VSFAG-020*** 0.47 6 x 37 x 45 £402.30 VSFAG-030*** 1 10 x 42 x 45 £495.42 VSFAG-040*** 2.2 5 x 86 x 103 £782.24 VSFAG-050*** 2.7 6 x 88 103 £901.83 VSFAG-060*** 3.3 7 x 89 x 103 £1147.29 VSFAG-070*** 4.7 10 x 92 x 103 £1564.48 VSFAG-080*** 5.6 11 x 93 x 103 £1747.01 VSFAG-090*** 6.8 14 x 96 x 103 £1951.88 VSFAG-100*** 8.2 16 x 98 x 103 £2279.67 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Louis Bartay Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 That is insane to spend that much money for those parts. I had to save to purchased Bob Crites new cross over boards and they made Pop's Cornwalls sound New again. They musy be Solid Silver or gold filled :-) WOW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jannegard1 Posted July 18, 2011 Share Posted July 18, 2011 yes the alnico drivers are fine i have old electro-voice t-35 the white magnet and chrome lens i use this too sometimes i made the type a crossovers so i can change from 4500hz too stock type a jantzen z cap are good or mundorf best caps [] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jannegard1 Posted July 18, 2011 Share Posted July 18, 2011 here is a good link http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html[] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triode Pete Posted July 24, 2011 Author Share Posted July 24, 2011 Thanks for the link!!! See the verdict on the Duelunds... best there is... I guess... Had an audiophile friend over for a listen yesterday; he was an ultra-fi manufacturer of audiophile stands for a long time and he gets "manufacturer's discounts". He just purchased 6 Duelund components to upgrade his crossovers on his "Analysis" speakers (ultra-fi ribbons based upon Apogee designs that are built in Greece). He paid $5K USD for 2 capacitors, 2 resistors & 2 wire inductors... 60% off retail pricing!!! $5,000 to upgrade his crossovers! BTW, he heard my K-horns yesterday & said... "I wish I kept my Klipschorns with the center channel Belle"... [Y] Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audible Nectar Posted July 27, 2011 Share Posted July 27, 2011 I haven't run these as much on As but I have rolled caps quite a bit on AA, also with alnico - the V-Cap OIMP (oil in metallized polypropylene). They are my preferred choice for the 76 Belle Klipsch, being the most transparent and "not there" kind of "there" that just lets the music shine through. It's a tweaked to the hilt vintage Mac rig, having the best in caps and tubes throughout the chain, and the V cap based AA's are a big reason it all sounds so good. They have a 12uf which worked well for Belles (about 450 hz IIRC) I find great value in those simple early networks. For triode folks - or in my case MC30s, where it's not about volume and thump but the natural close as life midrange at more modest volume levels. For this purpose I LOVE the idea of playing around with an A or AA with GOOD parts. When DeanG recommended the VCap builds for my Belles I did it on a bit of a leap of faith, but the end results were even better than I expected. I rolled a set of VCaps into a friend's Cornwall Bs and he "got it" in very short order, and I also found it an immediate difference, especially with the imaging after a hundred hours runtime. I've run GE/Motorola oil can replacements (still have a certain magic), white Sonicaps (good value), Solens, and also spent time listening to Hovlands, Auricaps, and Audiocaps in a few different configurations. All have a bit of a differing "finish". It's certainly an interesting topic, especially from a triode perspective. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triode Pete Posted July 28, 2011 Author Share Posted July 28, 2011 Thanks for your opinion...I currently have the GE motor oil can replacements (12 uf + 1 uf = 13 mf) which sound very good. I guess I'm looking for something better... How expensive are the V-Cap OIMP? I currently have a couple V-Cap TFTF (tin foil) that I'll be experimenting in my Tannoy 12" dual concentric crossovers... All of my observations will be from a Triode Perspective. Thanks, Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audible Nectar Posted July 30, 2011 Share Posted July 30, 2011 V-Cap OIMP price sheet is here: http://www.v-cap.com/oil-capacitors.php On a horn, I'm not so sure about the teflon formulas. Would be an interesting trial on both horns and the Tannoys. However, the results of the OIMP formula for the PWK "basic" networks are just divine....especially for that triode way of listening. Juuuuuuust "wet" enough to not be offending or excessively "etched" or clinical, but allow all of the music to shine through. Excellent transparency without the "film-and-foily" upper midrange slap. No long break in, either.....fully "baked" within 100-200 hrs. One reason I haven't experimented with teflon in crossovers is that I'm not sure that I have the patience to wait out the long break-in time. In my experience with teflon formulas in gears, it's 500-1000 hours before full maturation occurs, and that's when you find out if the caps are really right. These teflon caps can do some amazing things in the right applications - the bullet speed transients and uber transparent nature of these caps can take a piece of gear up a couple of levels in performance. I love them for coupling caps in good gear....and they especially work well, it seems, in these amps made for horns with carbon comp or carbon film resistors which have that relaxed signature. So the result is that perfect crystal clear yet relaxed and warm approach that horns love - like my MC30s. I think teflons might be too "open" on a horn speaker crossover, but that's just a hunch. If I were working with speakers with less efficient components, like cone midranges and dome tweeters I would absolutely have interest in a teflon capped network, but just don't see it worth the gamble for horns. The OIMPs are perfect for that network as a "high end" cap. Some of these caps are quite expensive, but considering a full best quality rebuild of these basic networks can be done for $600-700ish in parts it's worth it as a critical upgrade to the Heritage. If it's gear you're gonna keep for the long haul I find the best parts worth it. OTOH if it's gear you're only going to keep before moving on to something else you might not take the plunge (although you can sell a well built high end network here if you sell off).And I still kept the GE can BEC rebuilds as well, as I do still enjoy the character of those on occasion.....a nice way to make a system change, or when a change is forced by service I'll roll in the GEs with Mac SS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triode Pete Posted August 4, 2011 Author Share Posted August 4, 2011 Thanks! I emailed Chris VH for OEM pricing on some caps. I also have my original AA crossovers from my '74 K-horns. Thinking about reusing the Type AA inductors & T2A autoformers (getting rid of the diode protection & the 245 uH inductor) to make up a Type A... I still like my BEC replacement Type A crossovers with the GE motor caps... sounds real good.... Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erik2A3 Posted August 4, 2011 Share Posted August 4, 2011 Pete I loved the sound of motor run caps in those networks. People use those things as input to filter capacitors and cathode resistor bypass caps, too. Doubtless the new caps you are looking at are well made (they certainly should be), but hold on to Bob's GE caps too! They are arguably the closest in sound to the original network -- if that's what one prefers. People have made some pretty drastic/traumatic changes to the original design of the Heritage speakers. Nothing wrong with that, just an observation. The type A is a very simple, yet very effective design. I've NOT been surprised at how many extremely high-end speaker designers prefer the low order networks (as in 6dB/octave) for their passive designs. Then there are those on the other side of the fence........... there is always the other side of the story. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djk Posted August 4, 2011 Share Posted August 4, 2011 Note how the PIO improves with a small bypass cap (fig.10, 11). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundbound Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 Pete I loved the sound of motor run caps in those networks. People use those things as input to filter capacitors and cathode resistor bypass caps, too. Doubtless the new caps you are looking at are well made (they certainly should be), but hold on to Bob's GE caps too! They are arguably the closest in sound to the original network -- if that's what one prefers. People have made some pretty drastic/traumatic changes to the original design of the Heritage speakers. Nothing wrong with that, just an observation. The type A is a very simple, yet very effective design. I've NOT been surprised at how many extremely high-end speaker designers prefer the low order networks (as in 6dB/octave) for their passive designs. Then there are those on the other side of the fence........... there is always the other side of the story. I like the sound of my Bob's big GE oil filled can caps in my Bob's AA networks. I've never felt the need to change. There's always was to improve, but they're good enough fo me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erik2A3 Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 Ah, the old bypass trick. Wow, I haven't seen those images in a long while. Do keep in mind that what we are looking at is a visually-based graph, not a human and highly subjective interpretation of the sound. Measured response is potentially useful and intersting, but when it comes down to simply listening and making a choice of preference of one thing over another (whether a cap type, the best choice at a buffet, or the latest hit at the box office), what is 'best' on an individual level may not be what everyone else or the critics like. I've bypassed many capacitors and yanked the cap out as often as I've left it in depending on the circuit in which it was used. One is free to experiment, and this is among the easier of experiments to perform. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djk Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 It's easy, inexpensive, and reversible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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