RF-7 ll

[DenPureSound]

I would love to get his Salon 2's, but no go... []

Quality speakers for less than $2K each is a task at hand, but we never want to compare Budweiser to Kokanee, either. Getting closer by the day, and I might soon be able to hear those Philharmonic Audio PH3's as a set is going to Portland, OR. this week.

Dennis Murphy is never happy w/ his Xover designs, and has always been searching for the best in Inductors, Caps, and Resistors let alone their values/wattage, and the overall design with the ML-TL cabinet at 66 inches in length, and around 80 liters in volume (Over 21 Gallons) for the bottom woofer enclosure, being able to get the terminus ports air velocity reaching its peak of approx. 4.3% of the speed of sound (14.7 m/s) at 23 Hz.

But, complementing the PH3's with a couple subs surely will make them sing throughout the room with clarity across the audible freq. spectrum. Only time will tell.

He got the Salon's then went onto the KEF's, now onto the PH3's? But, I agree once you have Salon's what else in a speaker do you need?

NOTHING!!

[Ski Bum]

Dennis, you have me thinking about other measuring criteria. I've always wondered how well Klipsh would perform using something like Geddes power response critera. I suspect they'd do pretty well. It would be interesting.

You're lucky to have a friend with such a collection of high zoot gear for you to hear first hand. Thats as good as a high-end boutique shop, except for the fact he won't sell you the salons, of course. Whenever your over there, tell him how flat and dull they sound, throw in some scowling, be convincing, and maybe he'll eventually cave. Directly comparing the Salons and Philharmonics will be a treat, not exactly an everyday opportunity. I don't think many of Philharmonics customers get the chance to actually hear them before buying, let alone up against a serious reference grade competitor.

You should seek out some Jubs to listen to, just for shits and giggles. They're the ultimate Klipsch. They provide an unforgettable, almost life changing experience (you'll immediately try to figure out how on earth you're going to fit them in your home, and scheme ways to convince your wife that they are essential).

[Heritage_Head]

At this point I have not put the Cornwalls into the equation, but that being said how flat are they w/in the average listening window?

By your admittedly tough criteria, I think the situation is essentially similar to the RF-7 II. I don't think they would pass the bar you've set. I doubt they would be any better than the Palladium measurements you saw.

Subjectively, I've never heard a Heritage series speaker I wouldn't take over a Reference series speaker. I have not heard the new RF 7 IIs, but I have heard several others, including an in-home audition of RF82s. My old fortes smoked 'em, so bad it made me slightly embarassed for Klipsh on the new offerings. So I feel Heritage is a clear and distinct, and satisfying, step up. They are more detailed and revealing in the midrange, less shouty and piercing (RF7s are supposedly better than 82s here), just more even keeled and transparent all around.

Cornwalls are HUGE, too. About twice the size of my fortes.

Not sure you know this but the rf-7 was originally going to

be called Heritage RF because they have so much in common with them in sound

and design.

Per amy “Think of it like the Heritage line. In fact, we almost called these

"Heritage RF," but thought since PWK didn't have a hand in their

development directly that it would be inappropriate”

The rf-82 and rf-7 are very different speakers.

I have owned both in the same room in the same spot with the

same power.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&sqi=2&ved=0CCMQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fforums.klipsch.com%2Fforums%2Ft%2F121846.aspx&ei=SV2TTt6wMumwsALA8pXDCg&usg=AFQjCNEzzdgjsBnvwccZQD-TGvmMwzIAug

[cornfedksboy]

The RF-82 II currently costs a little over half of what the Forte II cost 10-15 years ago. They are not in the same league, though a quality speaker at that price point.

Other than having a similar appearance, the RF-7, RF-63, RF-83, and RF-7 II have little in common with the lower end, made in China, Klipsch Reference series. They are essentially a two way Heritage product and a comparison of the RF-7 IIs to the Cornwall IIIs would be an appropriate comparison.

All that said, I do believe DenPure is looking for something different than what Klipsch offers with it's speaker design philosophy.

[DenPureSound]

I have heard the RF-7II's, and have RF-82II's that I am thinking of replacing with some Philharmonic Audio PH3's (3 Way,with 8" Woofer, and Planar Mid, and RAAL Ribbon Tweeter) no horns and not all cone speakers. I am planning on Auditioning the PH3's soon, and most likely from what I can see in specs. nothing else comes close, except some SALK SoundScape 12's but they are $14K per Pair, or some Revel Salon 2's at around $12K. Where I can get the Phil 3's for right around $3K per Pair, and there "Anechoic" chamber plots measure right up there with speakers in the $10K+ per Pair range, and even better than the Palladiums. So if this works out, I will have to leave my Klipsch's for either Wides or another room. If the Phil 3's sound as good as their specs, I will buy them knowing Dennis Murphy designed the Xover, spec'd the drivers, and Paul Kittenger designed the ML-TL for the enclosure.

[Heritage_Head]

The RF-82 II currently costs a little over half of what the Forte II cost 10-15 years ago. They are not in the same league, though a quality speaker at that price point.

Other than having a similar appearance, the RF-7, RF-63, RF-83, and RF-7 II have little in common with the lower end, made in China, Klipsch Reference series. They are essentially a two way Heritage product and a comparison of the RF-7 IIs to the Cornwall IIIs would be an appropriate comparison.

All that said, I do believe DenPure is looking for something different than what Klipsch offers with it's speaker design philosophy.

I agree corn great points. The one thing to add is stats are

only numbers and just because one speaker has better advertised stats means

very little.

I remember the Bose 901 rated them as unlimited power handling.

I have a def tec sub that is rated to go down to 13 Hz. Which I can tell you is

crap it falls off fast at 25 Hz. The list

goes on and on. Manufacture’s manufacture stats all the time.

A measured flat speaker in a chamber is flat in a chamber

but as soon as you put that same speaker in a room it’s not flat anymore. Just my

personal opinion but I wouldn’t buy a speaker on stats. They are fun to look at

and compare but good sound is all taste. I will say some stats can matter a

little bit. Like if a speaker is a huge box 4ft tall and only weighs 35lb. I would

pass on that pretty fast.[]

The best part is as the source gets better and better (quality

of material) these klipsch speakers will sound better and better being so

detailed and alive. But that doesn’t mean they sound better than a more polite

speaker. It’s all taste.

[Heritage_Head]

I have heard the RF-7II's, and have RF-82II's that I am thinking of replacing with some Philharmonic Audio PH3's (3 Way,with 8" Woofer, and Planar Mid, and RAAL Ribbon Tweeter) no horns and not all cone speakers. I am planning on Auditioning the PH3's soon, and most likely from what I can see in specs. nothing else comes close, except some SALK SoundScape 12's but they are $14K per Pair, or some Revel Salon 2's at around $12K. Where I can get the Phil 3's for right around $3K per Pair, and there "Anechoic" chamber plots measure right up there with speakers in the $10K+ per Pair range, and even better than the Palladiums. So if this works out, I will have to leave my Klipsch's for either Wides or another room. If the Phil 3's sound as good as their specs, I will buy them knowing Dennis Murphy designed the Xover, spec'd the drivers, and Paul Kittenger designed the ML-TL for the enclosure.

If you see stats that are too good to be true they usually

are. 25Hz flat from an 8” driver you would need a huge internal amp to get that

flat to 25 Hz. I don’t care how good the driver is its just laws of physics. 22hz

is no joke and to power that and keep up with the rest of the frequency range

at no less than 3db drop they would need eq everything else down so much to get even

close to flat that low. I hope you like them though because that’s all that

matters.

[pzannucci]

If you see stats that are too good to be true they usually are. 25Hz flat from an 8” driver you would need a huge internal amp to get that flat to 25 Hz. I don’t care how good the driver is its just laws of physics. 22hz is no joke and to power that and keep up with the rest of the frequency range at no less than 3db drop they would need eq everything else down so much to get even close to flat that low. I hope you like them though because that’s all that matters.

reference_head,

Actually good 8" woofers can get fairly low though you are likely to need room gain to get appreciable output that low. The key is nobody tells you how many db can be accomplished at that frequency. You run out of gas though if you are in a tiny room and depending on the music, it may not be too bad as long as you have enough power.

[cornfedksboy]

paznnuci,

I think that's what Ref_head was saying...There are a ton of compromises that must be made in order to keep a flat response down to 25 Hz, flat being the key. You need a bigger driver, more power, larger speaker, or cut the highs way, way down. It can probably be done, but by changing some of the room dynamics, you are likely to get unexpected issues.

Either way, I think it's great that you are going out to listen to these speakers and letting your ears be the judge!

[Heritage_Head]

If you see stats that are too good to be true they usually are. 25Hz flat from an 8” driver you would need a huge internal amp to get that flat to 25 Hz. I don’t care how good the driver is its just laws of physics. 22hz is no joke and to power that and keep up with the rest of the frequency range at no less than 3db drop they would need eq everything else down so much to get even close to flat that low. I hope you like them though because that’s all that matters.

reference_head,

Actually good 8" woofers can get fairly low though you are likely to need room gain to get appreciable output that low. The key is nobody tells you how many db can be accomplished at that frequency. You run out of gas though if you are in a tiny room and depending on the music, it may not be too bad as long as you have enough power.

Yes I know 8” drivers can reach down to 25 Hz. But to do it

from an entire speaker and not speaker/sub is much harder to obtain flat at

+3/-3db. 25-20,000 (like corn said it can be done but there would be huge compromises

somewhere)

That’s why we just don’t see it from a normal speaker. Even

speakers with 15” drivers aren’t normally flat to 25 Hz. unless they have an

internal amp.

Speakers can hit ranges from 5 Hz 100,000 Hz but to be flat

to a true 3db +/-is a different story.

Subs are different because to get flat with a sub it’s basically

20-120 Hz and not 20-20,000 Hz and it has its own power. Even if it’s a passive

sub.

[DenPureSound]

Take a look at the SALK SoundScape 12's (@$14,000/Pair), as Dennis Murphy also designed the Xover's for them. Now, compare the specs of the Philharmonic Audio PH3's (Around $3,000/Pair), and you will see how they both compare, very interesting as I think the specs of the frequency response on the PH3's are even better from 200Hz. through 20KHz. Look at the enclosure sizes, very comparable also supporting the 1/4 Wavelength ML-TL Mass Loaded Transmission Line design -- they state once you hear a speaker with a Transmission Line design you never go back.

I have not heard the SoundScape 12's but would love to even though they are way to pricey for my budget here, so I just might have to settle on the Philharmonic Audio PH3's for FL/FR stereo mains. I love the drivers in the PH3's, with one Scanspeak cone woofer, Neo8 Planar, and the RAAL Ribbon Tweeter -- Very Nice Selection of drivers!

Maybe soon I will be able to hear the Phil 3's close by I am hoping, as I have heard the RF-7II's.