Subwoofers~SVS vs Tapped Horn vs Fitzmaurice THT

[artto]

Well, the choices are getting more complex.

I've decided I don't have the time to get
involved with a DIY project, so the current alternatives are as follows. Keep
in mind that this is for a two-channel MUSIC system. Even if HT is added at a
later date, I’m not interested in hearing the sound levels involved with or
feeling the impact of houses exploding in front of my face or F-22’s taking
off with afterburners at full throttle. I’m more interested in smoothness of response
with extended sub bass response, fundamental tones and sub-harmonics with low
distortion primarily from musical instruments, including pipe organ and
synthesizer, large drums, Mickey Hart’s “The Beast” (lol), etc.

1. Have a pair of custom built Fitzmaurice
THT low profile 18"x21"x72" horns built for $2550 + two Dayton SA1000
amplifiers @ $800 = $3350

2. A pair of SVS PC13-Ultra = $3400 or $3100
for outlet specials (S&H included)

3. A Quad of Epik Empires $2800 + $196
S&H = $2996

4. A quad of HRU Research ULS 15 $4000 +
$276 S&H = $4276

Pros
& Cons

#1 Cons: The first is depreciation. These
are large custom made units. As one of our Forum friends well knows, it took
him over a year to sell his tapped horn for $400. I suspect if I want or need
to sell these I can expect the same whether I build them or have them made. I’m
not the type who cares to take a 70% or more depreciation hit on something I
will have made for me that is specialized and of limited use.

The other major issue with #1 is that this
is a no return item. With all the other alternatives I have 30-45 days to
decide, customer satisfaction guaranteed, and only pay for return shipping.
Epik is local so even that may not cost me anything.

Another issue with #1 is these will have to
be placed vertically on either side of the Belle center speaker and diffusors.
The cabinet will extend 3” beyond the front of the Belle on both sides. Certainly
this will cause some refraction from the midrange and treble horns.

Yet another issue with #1 is that the mouth
of the horns will have to fire upwards towards the ceiling. I’m not sure what
effect this is going to have acoustically. And I’m sure it will introduce some
new sound transmission issues to the living room & dining room above, as
well as possibly through the outside walls which are above grade where the horn
mouths are firing.

#1 Pros: It’s the highest sensitivity
solution and probably the lowest distortion.

#2 Cons: The pair of SVS subs have two 13.5”
drivers. These are long throw drivers. I’m concerned there may be a decent
amount of modulation distortion especially as cone excursion increases with
higher output and as the frequency gets lower which may in turn muddy things
up. I have a pet peeve about muddy sounding bass. From what I’ve read about
other people’s opinions this may not be an issue. The pair of 13.5" drivers maybe difficult integrate, tonally, with the Khorns, for music applications. Also, these things have to
pump a lot of air. And they too will have to be placed on either side of the
Belle so there won’t be any benefit from 1/8^th space reinforcement.
There may be some (or at times a lot of) port noise.

#2 Pros: I have to admit I like the way the
frequency response and lowest extension looks, very smooth and extended.
Distortion (THD) is in the single digits almost all the way down to 16Hz at
110db. With a pair this would be even less. There’s plenty of features on this sub.
XLR inputs can be chained together. Built-in DSP and parametric EQ is very
flexible. Variable tuning via the ports and electronics. A low crossover
frequency available. Fully adjustable (frequency and
slope) phase-correct speaker/sub digital crossover. Room gain compensation
control with adjustable frequency and slope. Two (2) digital PEQs with
adjustable frequency, cut/boost, and Q values. There’s a lot here that can be
dialed in to maximize performance and integration with the Khorns. And SVS has the longest (45 day) money back satisfaction guranteed policy.

#3 Cons: From what I’ve seen of the measurements
at DataBass.com the Epik doesn’t appear to dig down quite as low as the other
alternatives. Its lowest crossover frequency is 50Hz. I would like to crossover
the Khorns lower than that, around 30-35Hz. As far as I can tell there is no EQ of any kind on board
which could be a concern with the rapid roll off at 20Hz. The phase is adjustable
only to 0 or 180 degrees as opposed to continuously variable. The website lacks
informational documentation. Manuals are not available for examination. I see a
lot bragging but not much backing it up. Pictures are small and unclear,
difficult to actually see what everything on the amplifier panel is and what it
says. According to DataBass.com it has a lot of distortion, especially around
20-25Hz. The CEA2010 Max Clean SPL With Passing THD+Noise test results indicate
“limited by – 3^rd and 9^th harmonic distortion” from
12.5Hz to 31.5Hz. It did not pass the 10Hz test although Epik claims usable
response to 10Hz. The lack of on-board features (like the SVS) might make it
more difficult to integrate with the main system. The few reviews present are
from sources that are primarily concerned with HT as opposed to music. It’s
also a newer company and there’s not too much to be found on their most recent
products from qualified sources that I know I can trust. Reading “between the lines”, much of this
concerns me as to its quality and actual performance. I don’t like it when
manufacturers list a high MSRP price/value, especially when they sell direct,
then show much lower sale price which is crossed out, and then an even lower
“introductory” price to try and convince you what a bargain it is. It is what
it is. Why try and make it out to be something it isn’t? Often it’s what you
don’t know that can hurt you most. Certainly there is a lot of bang for the
buck here but in the end it’s the quality that counts.

#3 Pros: On the plus side I’m wondering what
the result will be with four of these. Four Epik Empire gives me an 8x15 setup,
all drivers powered, in four cabinets. This gives me a lot of flexibility in
room placement/combinations. I can place two on either side of the Belle and
one each at the base of each Khorn, or at the base of each Khorn and one each
in the rear corners, or double a pair somewhere else. There’s a lot more flexibility.
The four 2x15 side firing subs at multiple locations *should* provide for
better and smoother overall response without resorting to electronic processing.
And although one of these may not be able to take much advantage of room gain
due to the high pass filter which appears to roll off the response below 20Hz
(as per DataBass.com comments), four of them, especially if all four are near
room corners, may change that situation. This would also have the benefit of
not “spoiling” the dramatic frontal appearance of the room along with the
openness and spaciousness of the room acoustics. IMHO, visuals are important,
unless of course you listen with your eyes closed, which I usually don’t do
because I tend to fall asleep (LOL), and then of course, none of it is
important. Also, after doing extensive searches on both the company and its
owner I have to admit I couldn’t come up at all with anything negative. And
they are local. It is the lowest cost soluton.

#4 Cons: Clearly this is the most expensive
alternative. I haven’t been able to find much information on this sub other
than opinions on various forums, usually HT related. And without knowing
people’s individual circumstances it can be difficult to transpose their
situation to mine. Only 0/180 degrees phase control. They’re on the west coast
so S&H will be quite a bit more than any of the others, which is a concern
should I decide to send them back or need repair.

#4 Pros: This sub appears to have the
smoothest, and most extended deep response. It has continuously variable
crossover down to 30Hz, continuously variable ultra low frequency trim for room
gain control down to 16Hz. Wireless connectivity.

[Quiet_Hollow]

How much did they end up quoting you for a DTS-10?

[RagingBullWinkle]

I'm far from an expert but I can tell you after my experiment last week I left the SVS on the 2 channel wall and moved the RW-12d to the HT side.

I'm thinking if Newegg has the RW-12 at 299 again I will add a second to the HT side. Or another SVS if one pops up???

[artto]

How much did they end up quoting you for a DTS-10?

I got quotes for the DTS-10, DTS-20, Spud and TH50. The DTS-10 was the most expensive. I can't find the paper I wrote it down on at the moment but if I remember correctly it was about $3500 + shipping + IL sales tax. Shipping weight is about 350LBS.

The rep said Danley definitely won't be offering the kit again because they didn't like the build quality they were seeing on many them and felt that they needed to protect their reputation and quality control.

EDIT: I found the prices. DTS-10 $3100, DTS-20 $3175 and the SPUD $2375.

[Quiet_Hollow]

It certainly would be the most expensive route (still need an SA-1000 to drive it), but it would have your needs well-covered...without a doubt.

Just sucks that for the frequencies, horn subs have to be so big. The Bag End might still fit this application just fine. I'd have to crunch some more numbers though to be certain.

...they didn't like the build quality they were

seeing on many them and felt that they needed to protect their

reputation and quality control.

ahhh yes. []

[dtel]

Artto, or anyone, you would know this better than me, older thinking was that a sealed sub was better for music if i remember from reading in the past. Is this still the thinking, I know subs have come a long way in the last few years so this thinking may not be true today ? Also your matching with a folded horn speaker which may affect that choice also ?

I know you have done alot of work to designed the room for 2 Ch, so adding a sub should benefit and not take anything away.

[StephenM]

you would know this better than me, older thinking was that a sealed sub was better for music if i remember from reading in the past.

As with most things in life, it's more complicated than that. A ported sub will typically have phase and ringing issues around its tuning frequency. However, if you push those issues down low enough, they become practically moot. In the end, it comes down to implementation and engineering.

[artto]

Artto, or anyone, you would know this better than me, older thinking was that a sealed sub was better for music if i remember from reading in the past. Is this still the thinking, I know subs have come a long way in the last few years so this thinking may not be true today ? Also your matching with a folded horn speaker which may affect that choice also ?

I know you have done alot of work to designed the room for 2 Ch, so adding a sub should benefit and not take anything away.

That's what I've heard too but as Stephen mentioned there's more to it than that. And yes, matching to a fully horn loaded system tends to complicate things in terms of integration and getting it to sound right.

I have to admit, this has quickly turned into much more of a project than I initially considered. When I saw Tom's tapped horn for $400 I figured I would just take a ride up to Milwaukee, pick it up and try it with one of my unused Crown amps using the subwoofer output from the preamp and see what happens, something to just get me in the ballpark and experiment a little bit. For $400 it was certainly worth my time and money. $4000 is starting to get a little pricey just to get another 8 notes at the lowest *audible* frequencies which are hardly ever present in music. I may just go back to my original plan and look for some appropriate used sub(s) for experimenting to see how it sounds, if there's really any benefit for me. I still have to run more tests on my system again but when Tom was over we played the test CD he brought and I could hear fairly strong output from the system playing 25Hz sine wave, 20Hz was still audible (barely) and 16Hz not much of anything that I could hear or feel. Granted, I didn't have the system turned up very high, but the point being there was a big audible drop after 25Hz.

[artto]

In the meantime I also found a YouTube with Danley's new JericoJH3 paired with a DTS-10. Granted, I'm playing this through my Klipsch ProMedia desktop so there are obvious limitations, but I must tell you, the bass sound was not what I'm looking for. It was apparent to me even through the ProMedia sub. It had a rather compressed, unnatural sustained sounding quality to it, the kind you typically hear at rock concerts. They were just playing a recording, not live music. Even as a bass player myself, I rarely use compression to even out the sound like a lot players do. I just don't like it. It seems to take away a lot of the expression. To me its clearly audible and in the case of the Danley DTS-10 on the YouTube video this reminded me of what I heard at the OmniMax. So maybe its just a sound quality I don't like.

[RagingBullWinkle]

PM sent

[RRFL]

Hi Artto

I have a pair of K-Horns with a LaScala center also have a SVS PB12 Plus 2, never thought to put them together but if you want to swing by some weekend and try your welcome to it.

Thanks for the offer. I may take you up on it just to see how it sounds.

Right now the path I'm most considering is having a pair of Bill Fitzmaurice's THT low profile versions made in a 18x21x72 configuration with Dayton RSS390HF drivers driven by a pair of Dayton SA1000 amps. They would stand vertical on either side of the Belle center. Also under consideration is a Danley DTS-10 laying flat under the Belle. Same amp.

I have built a 72x18x24.5 THTLP for a friend and it's great. The pic shows it as installed before it's hidden by encasement. It's mouth down 18" above the floor in a rendered brick corner.

Rather than build a pair of 21" wide THTLP's, why not build a single 36" wide THTLP and position it vertical mouth down 18" above the floor behind the Belle, depending on room dimensions. You could also raise the Belle 18" above the floor. I think it would be more complex to tweak a pair of 21" wide THTLP separated by the Belle with the mouth up. I think they would work better if the pair were together behind the Belle mouth down depending on the room dimensions. The other thing to consider is the dimension of the room and centre placement.

I quote Bill Fitzmaurice "Boundary loading should be used whenever its practical to do so. Having subs next to a wall gets you up to 6dB of additional sensitivity below about 80Hz, and putting them in a corner up to 12dB. In most cases youll have best results with the cabinet mouth against one wall, about 18 inches from the adjacent wall. If the cabinet mouth is a quarter-wavelength from a boundary there will be up to a 24dB deep cancellation at that frequency. Within the nominal bandwidth of the THTLP a quarter-wavelength ranges from 19 feet at 15 Hz to 2.8 feet at 100 Hz, so middle of room placement usually wont work well. You may put the THTLP upright aimed at the ceiling, or on 16 to 24 inch legs aimed at the floor. Every room is different, so try a variety of placements to find the one that works best."

I use KPT-684 and KPT-682 regularly and they are great. However, they are ported and for me they lack the instant speed of the LaScala. I don't know if a Tapped Horn would produce the same lag as I have not heard one, however, since it is a tuned device using both sides of the driver, it's likely it would annoy me even though it might measure well. The measurements are useful, however, they are not conclusive. Ported speakers take a while to get going and then a while to stop. Not everyone will notice this so for many people the ported speaker is preferred.

[StephenM]

The measurements are useful, however, they are not conclusive. Ported speakers take a while to get going and then a while to stop. Not everyone will notice this so for many people the ported speaker is preferred.

FWIW, measurements can show this effect just fine:

SVS PB13U: 15Hz Tune

Waterfall:

http://www.data-bass.com/images/measurements/55/B%20pb13%2015hz%20waterfall.jpg

Group Delay:

http://www.data-bass.com/images/measurements/55/C%20pb13%2015hz%20group%20delay.jpg

SVS PB13U: Sealed

Waterfall:

http://www.data-bass.com/images/measurements/57/B%20pb13%20sealed%20waterfall.jpg

Group Delay:

http://www.data-bass.com/images/measurements/57/C%20pb13%20sealed%20group%20delay.jpg

You'll notice the difference in this case is primarily below 20Hz, which is why I say with a very good ported subwoofer, you're unlikely to notice much difference with 99% of music. Here's how the Danley DTS-10 performs comparatively:

Waterfall:

http://www.data-bass.com/images/measurements/29/E%20dts10%20waterfall.jpg

Group Delay:

http://www.data-bass.com/images/measurements/29/F%20dts10%20group%20delay.jpg

[Quiet_Hollow]

I don't know if a Tapped Horn would produce the same lag

When setup correctly, they don't.

[artto]

Hi Artto

I have a pair of K-Horns with a LaScala center also have a SVS PB12 Plus 2, never thought to put them together but if you want to swing by some weekend and try your welcome to it.

Thanks for the offer. I may take you up on it just to see how it sounds.

Right now the path I'm most considering is having a pair of Bill Fitzmaurice's THT low profile versions made in a 18x21x72 configuration with Dayton RSS390HF drivers driven by a pair of Dayton SA1000 amps. They would stand vertical on either side of the Belle center. Also under consideration is a Danley DTS-10 laying flat under the Belle. Same amp.

I have built a 72x18x24.5 THTLP for a friend and it's great. The pic shows it as installed before it's hidden by encasement. It's mouth down 18" above the floor in a rendered brick corner.

Rather than build a pair of 21" wide THTLP's, why not build a single 36" wide THTLP and position it vertical mouth down 18" above the floor behind the Belle, depending on room dimensions. You could also raise the Belle 18" above the floor. I think it would be more complex to tweak a pair of 21" wide THTLP separated by the Belle with the mouth up. I think they would work better if the pair were together behind the Belle mouth down depending on the room dimensions. The other thing to consider is the dimension of the room and centre placement.

I quote Bill Fitzmaurice "Boundary loading should be used whenever it’s practical to do so. Having subs next to a wall gets you up to 6dB of additional sensitivity below about 80Hz, and putting them in a corner up to 12dB. In most cases you’ll have best results with the cabinet mouth against one wall, about 18 inches from the adjacent wall. If the cabinet mouth is a quarter-wavelength from a boundary there will be up to a 24dB deep cancellation at that frequency. Within the nominal bandwidth of the THTLP a quarter-wavelength ranges from 19 feet at 15 Hz to 2.8 feet at 100 Hz, so middle of room placement usually won’t work well. You may put the THTLP upright aimed at the ceiling, or on 16 to 24 inch legs aimed at the floor. Every room is different, so try a variety of placements to find the one that works best."

I use KPT-684 and KPT-682 regularly and they are great. However, they are ported and for me they lack the instant speed of the LaScala. I don't know if a Tapped Horn would produce the same lag as I have not heard one, however, since it is a tuned device using both sides of the driver, it's likely it would annoy me even though it might measure well. The measurements are useful, however, they are not conclusive. Ported speakers take a while to get going and then a while to stop. Not everyone will notice this so for many people the ported speaker is preferred.

Rod, First let me say that I like your idea and implementation of the THTLP in that encasement.

FWIW,
in my room a THTLP cannnot be placed behind the Belle as you
described. See that avatar of mine in the upper left corner? That's my
room (the older version of polycylinder treatment I used). The room is
half-way below grade and the front room wall is an outside wall with a
concrete foundation behind it.

Second is I've already considered
raising the Belle 18" to suit a number of different
subwoofer scenarios with the sub under it. Raising the Belle up that
much puts the mid/treble horns even higher than the Khorns. IMO it ruins
the perception of depth across the stage. It also makes the Belle mid
and tweeter radiate reflections off the ceiling which can make the sound
harsh and lose definition. (can you tell? I've been through this
before) []

I'm fully aware of the effects of room dimesions and
its affect on speaker placement, including subs. I've already had some
discussion about this with Bill's local authorized builder's engineer.
The distance from the side walls to the center line of the THTLP on
either side of the Belle is about 10'-6". Their engineer feels this
should not present any problems with room modes.

I've already
considered aiming the THTLP's at the ceiling or standing them on legs.
But my biggest concern with these DIY subs is I simply will not have the
time to get involved building these in any kind of timely manner. And
then of course there's the matter of depreciation. If I don't like what
I'm getting out of them or simply need to sell them, the fact of the
matter is I'm going to have to take a 70-80% hit since I'll have to have
Bill's local authorized builder make them for me. There's no trial
period or satifaction guarantee either. If I have them built, they're
mine.

I've recently heard some Danley tapped horns and I have to
admit I don't like what I hear. In fact its exactly the kind of low-end
sound I'm trying desperately to avoid. I've played the bass
professionally on and off for decades, so please believe me when I say I
know what good high definition bass sounds like and the range of sounds
it can produce.The tapped horns have some kind of funny compressed
resonance quality to them (IMO) that really ruins the detail and
"expression" of what's being played by the musician. If the application
requires (relatively speaking) low distortion, high output, long sound
throw, over a large wide open area being delivered to 10K, 20K people or
more, that's another matter. You do what you have to do.

I also
agree about the "speed" regarding many subs, especially ported ones, and
even more so ones with long throw drivers. It can be difficult
integrating these kind of subs with three fully horn loaded full range
systems like Khorns or LaScala.

I'm going to assume you haven't
seen my thread in the Forum's Architectural section which provides a lot
detail on my room. If you haven't, please take a look.

At the
moment, I think I'm going to go with four Epik Empire subs. It will
allow me a lot more flexibilty with setup and integration. With eight
15" drivers in four reasonably sized sealed cabinets there should be
very little cone excursion required at any sound level I'm going to
listen to, even though they have 2.5KW (6KW peak) power, which I'll most
likely never use. They'll be coasting along even at prodigious sound
levels. They also happen to be the low cost solution after everything
I've considered. They have a 30 day satisfaction guarantee. And since
they are made here in the Chicago area I can pick them up myself and
avoid S&H charges. If I don't like them I won't have to pay return
S&H either. I'm just waiting for the manufacturer to get back to me
again regarding some additional questions I have. I'm pretty sure this
is a go. And get this ~ when I finally broke the final news and cost to
my wife last night, she didn't even flinch! What an [A] !!!!

[RRFL]

The SVS are a very interesting system, I have considered many times. The DS 10 kits also interested me and I was going to order one to see what it would be like. The weight and size stopped that though. I have also considered an IB into another room.

[RRFL]

Hi Artto

I have a pair of K-Horns with a LaScala center also have a SVS PB12 Plus 2, never thought to put them together but if you want to swing by some weekend and try your welcome to it.

Thanks for the offer. I may take you up on it just to see how it sounds.

Right now the path I'm most considering is having a pair of Bill Fitzmaurice's THT low profile versions made in a 18x21x72 configuration with Dayton RSS390HF drivers driven by a pair of Dayton SA1000 amps. They would stand vertical on either side of the Belle center. Also under consideration is a Danley DTS-10 laying flat under the Belle. Same amp.

I have built a 72x18x24.5 THTLP for a friend and it's great. The pic shows it as installed before it's hidden by encasement. It's mouth down 18" above the floor in a rendered brick corner.

Rather than build a pair of 21" wide THTLP's, why not build a single 36" wide THTLP and position it vertical mouth down 18" above the floor behind the Belle, depending on room dimensions. You could also raise the Belle 18" above the floor. I think it would be more complex to tweak a pair of 21" wide THTLP separated by the Belle with the mouth up. I think they would work better if the pair were together behind the Belle mouth down depending on the room dimensions. The other thing to consider is the dimension of the room and centre placement.

I quote Bill Fitzmaurice "Boundary loading should be used whenever its practical to do so. Having subs next to a wall gets you up to 6dB of additional sensitivity below about 80Hz, and putting them in a corner up to 12dB. In most cases youll have best results with the cabinet mouth against one wall, about 18 inches from the adjacent wall. If the cabinet mouth is a quarter-wavelength from a boundary there will be up to a 24dB deep cancellation at that frequency. Within the nominal bandwidth of the THTLP a quarter-wavelength ranges from 19 feet at 15 Hz to 2.8 feet at 100 Hz, so middle of room placement usually wont work well. You may put the THTLP upright aimed at the ceiling, or on 16 to 24 inch legs aimed at the floor. Every room is different, so try a variety of placements to find the one that works best."

I use KPT-684 and KPT-682 regularly and they are great. However, they are ported and for me they lack the instant speed of the LaScala. I don't know if a Tapped Horn would produce the same lag as I have not heard one, however, since it is a tuned device using both sides of the driver, it's likely it would annoy me even though it might measure well. The measurements are useful, however, they are not conclusive. Ported speakers take a while to get going and then a while to stop. Not everyone will notice this so for many people the ported speaker is preferred.

Rod, First let me say that I like your idea and implementation of the THTLP in that encasement.

FWIW,

in my room a THTLP cannnot be placed behind the Belle as you

described. See that avatar of mine in the upper left corner? That's my

room (the older version of polycylinder treatment I used). The room is

half-way below grade and the front room wall is an outside wall with a

concrete foundation behind it.

Second is I've already considered

raising the Belle 18" to suit a number of different

subwoofer scenarios with the sub under it. Raising the Belle up that

much puts the mid/treble horns even higher than the Khorns. IMO it ruins

the perception of depth across the stage. It also makes the Belle mid

and tweeter radiate reflections off the ceiling which can make the sound

harsh and lose definition. (can you tell? I've been through this

before)

I'm fully aware of the effects of room dimesions and

its affect on speaker placement, including subs. I've already had some

discussion about this with Bill's local authorized builder's engineer.

The distance from the side walls to the center line of the THTLP on

either side of the Belle is about 10'-6". Their engineer feels this

should not present any problems with room modes.

I've already

considered aiming the THTLP's at the ceiling or standing them on legs.

But my biggest concern with these DIY subs is I simply will not have the

time to get involved building these in any kind of timely manner. And

then of course there's the matter of depreciation. If I don't like what

I'm getting out of them or simply need to sell them, the fact of the

matter is I'm going to have to take a 70-80% hit since I'll have to have

Bill's local authorized builder make them for me. There's no trial

period or satifaction guarantee either. If I have them built, they're

mine.

I've recently heard some Danley tapped horns and I have to

admit I don't like what I hear. In fact its exactly the kind of low-end

sound I'm trying desperately to avoid. I've played the bass

professionally on and off for decades, so please believe me when I say I

know what good high definition bass sounds like and the range of sounds

it can produce.The tapped horns have some kind of funny compressed

resonance quality to them (IMO) that really ruins the detail and

"expression" of what's being played by the musician. If the application

requires (relatively speaking) low distortion, high output, long sound

throw, over a large wide open area being delivered to 10K, 20K people or

more, that's another matter. You do what you have to do.

I also

agree about the "speed" regarding many subs, especially ported ones, and

even more so ones with long throw drivers. It can be difficult

integrating these kind of subs with three fully horn loaded full range

systems like Khorns or LaScala.

I'm going to assume you haven't

seen my thread in the Forum's Architectural section which provides a lot

detail on my room. If you haven't, please take a look.

At the

moment, I think I'm going to go with four Epik Empire subs. It will

allow me a lot more flexibilty with setup and integration. With eight

15" drivers in four reasonably sized sealed cabinets there should be

very little cone excursion required at any sound level I'm going to

listen to, even though they have 2.5KW (6KW peak) power, which I'll most

likely never use. They'll be coasting along even at prodigious sound

levels. They also happen to be the low cost solution after everything

I've considered. They have a 30 day satisfaction guarantee. And since

they are made here in the Chicago area I can pick them up myself and

avoid S&H charges. If I don't like them I won't have to pay return

S&H either. I'm just waiting for the manufacturer to get back to me

again regarding some additional questions I have. I'm pretty sure this

is a go. And get this ~ when I finally broke the final news and cost to

my wife last night, she didn't even flinch! What an !!!!

I have not read your thread and I will, thanks. I like your choice of the Epik Empire sealed with 8 15's. That would likely work for me as I'm generally comfortable with a sealed system and personally prefer less extension to the other compromises. We did a pair of large sealed quad boxes with 4 15's in each for a night club installation and it works really well. I would like to place a full width tuba in between them. Unlikely that will ever happen though as at full power it is sufficient.

I appreciate what your saying about bass especially from your musical background. I'm re-mixing my centre cinema channel into the left and right for the same reason you don't want the Belle above the Khorns. In my space, lacking the width you have, I want the screen in that spot. I'm going for removing reflections and relying on the 402's to span the space.

When we were adjusting the Tuba we found ourselves muting the HF units as it has the sensation of being off but that's just the effect of there being no bass when there is no bass. The room is ideal for it and the owners don't want the bass to be apparent. It extends out the bottom with reality. I really like it. The encasement made it 100% wife friendly and the architect also approved.

[RRFL]

"Quote" I'm going to assume you haven't seen my thread in the Forum's Architectural section which provides a lot detail on my room. If you haven't, please take a look.

Please send me the link.

[artto]

http://community.klipsch.com/forums/t/19799.aspx?PageIndex=1

On one of the pages there's also a downloadable PDF file hosted by one of our Forum members (justintx I believe) on his server of the Klipsch Audio Papers, Klipsch Dope From Hope dealer newsletters and some other assorted treats from my own personal library. (for your own use and no resale please).

[RRFL]

Thank you very much "Awesome"...

[artto]

And now.............something completely different

I finally decided to go with the Epik Empire subs, a quad of them. [:|] That's eight 15's, 2400 watts RMS, 6000 peak in sealed cabinets. []

Ironically, this also turned out to be the lowest cost solution of all the products I considered. I considered the Paradigm Sub2, a quad of Klipsch SW-115, a pair of custom built THT low profiles (18x21x72), a pair of SVS PC13-Ultra, Danley DTS10, DTS20 and TH Spud, pair of Rythmik F25, Seaton, Bag End D18E-AD, even a custom infinite baffle setup, and I've probably missed a few.

I just got them Monday so I'm still in the process of dialing them in with the rest of the system. The home theater crowd may or may like these, I don't know. I'm using them for music. From what I gather the HT crowd seems to prefer extreme infra sonics and SPL levels that I have no intention of putting these through. I wanted something that would result in low cone excursion with the resulting low distortion and effortless extension needed to match up with the rest of the system.

And so far, indeed, that's what I got. Telarc's Time Warp "Ascent" was quite amazing, a depth I'd never quite heard before. Strauss's "Also Sprach Zarathustra" the organ low pedal tone was all there. And the bombastic lead-in to Star Trek:Main Theme was awesome. Mussorgsky's "Pictures at an Exhibition" on Dorian (1988) transcribed for organ and performed by Jean Guillou, same thing, powerful and musical all the way down to the lowest notes without any bloat. The heartbeat opening on Pink Floyd's "Dark Side of the Moon" sounded and felt like I was inside of a huge heart. On Peter Gabriel's SACD UP, "Growing Up" was wonderful. The sustained synthesizer part towards the end had incredible weight, and bloom. Absolutley awesome. on Dafos, a Reference Recordings CD, "The Gates of Dafos, Mickey Hart goes to town on his signature instrument "The Beast". For those of you who are familiar with this "thing" know what I'm talking about. I remember attending an Infinity IRS (the "big ones") demo back in the 80's at the CES Show. My wife and I were standing outside the demo room waiting our turn and this piece came on. The hotel floor and walls started shaking. My wife's response was "What the hell are they doing in there, killing somebody? No problem here with concrete floors, it just sounded like someone had dropped a Mack truck to the floor in a large warehouse. On the Telarc 1812 Overture, the cannon shots, didn't even phase the Epik Empires. I remember Infinity using this for their IRS demo also. The bass columns failed miserably, bottoming out, making clicking noises. With the 8x15 Empires, I couldn't even see visable cone movement from the listening position and barely visable right in front of the drivers!

So far, so good. It also seems from my limited audition and dialing things in so far, that I may have to adjust the gain level on the subs depending on what I'm listening to. A minor inconvenience I guess.