Subwoofers~SVS vs Tapped Horn vs Fitzmaurice THT

[artto]

Just kind of curious since I'm considering a sub on the 2-channel system for the first time.

I missed out on that tapped horn that was for sale here on the Forum. I guess the idea of it got the juices flowing.

Has anyone had the opportunity to compare the SVS (the PC-13Ultra preferably) to a tapped horn like the one on this Forum or Fitzmaurice's Tuba HT? Since I missed out on the tapped horn I was thinking of building one myself. After further investigation it looks like both the THT and tapped horn would both require substantial EQ at the lowest frequencies to get reasonably flat response down to 16Hz. The SVS PC-13Ultra seems like it might actually provide better performance albeit at more cost (but far less work).

For the time being the SVS would probably go in the right rear corner of the room. The other two would also be along the right room wall firing into the right rear corner. Ideally, with the SVS I would have two of them on the middle front wall, one on each side of the Belle center speaker.

Any and all comments welcome []

[CECAA850]

Do you absolutely need 16Hz for music listening or would 20 do?

[artto]

Do you absolutely need 16Hz for music listening or would 20 do?

I absolutely want it. I record live concerts for a local Chorale and produce their CDs (for resale). They perform at a church which has a large pipe organ and sometimes have a small orchestra which often includes percusion with instruments like tympani which have harmonics down there. Beyond that I guess I like certain kinds of music which often have sounds going down that far. And since I've come this far, with the dedicated listening room and all, why stop here?

[Mr. RF62]

I recommend the Paradigm Sub 2.

http://www.paradigm.com/far-out-stuff/signature-sub-2-the-most-powerful-sub-in-the-world

Just M.O.

[Schu]

good to 7hz on the 2 model?

[tragusa3]

I've got a pair of the Danley DTS10 tapped horns. A buddy has a pair of THT (36"). Another buddy a pair of F20's. And yet....another buddy with the SVSPB12+ So I'm fairly familiar whith these.

As you're aware, the room and proper integration have more to do with any differences than the subs themselves. But to give an opinion (which may not be worth very much), I think you summized it fairly well. The tapped horns are not plug and play. Most folks can plug that SVS in and in one evenings time get it to perform. I spent nearly a year on my pair of tapped horns. That being said, the final results are, I spent less money and have superior performance.

I would wonder if the advantages are clear for two channel music? I have two different presets on my EQ and use a more boosted low end for movies. In that application, the big Danleys really do distance themselves from any of the other options I've heard. But with my music configuration, I could see the SVS being as good a solution.

If your goal was ULF for exploding things in movies, and you didn't mind working to save a buck, it's a no brainer. But that doesn't seem to be your application.

[CECAA850]

Is an IB doable? Usable output to 10Hz, no problem.

[StephenM]

Has anyone had the opportunity to compare the SVS (the PC-13Ultra preferably)

This is what the PC-13's boxy brother, the PB13 can do in 15Hz tune:

http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=system&id=55&mset=55

105dB @ 16Hz @ 2 meters ground plane is nothing to sneeze at by any means.

Here's the Danley DTS-10

http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=system&id=4&mset=29

More output to be sure, but also more oddities in the measurements.

Here's another (less costly than an Ultra) alternative, the Rythmik FV15HP with one port open:

http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=system&id=51&mset=49

104dB @ 16Hz @ 2 meters ground plane, again nothing to sneeze at.

[tragusa3]

Stephen, I had not seen all of that data compiled in one location before. Thanks. I can testify to the truths of the data and the reviewers opinions. I've lived it! For me, it's been a worthy effort. The distortion comments seem accurate. It may measure poorly, but that doesn't seem to translate to the listening experience. I currently cross mine at 80hz, but would like to experiment more with something lower. Using a Behringinger 1124, I successfully controlled the 54hz peak and the 100hz as well. My particular EQ curve is hottest between 15-25hz. The review states that it's clearest in that range, and it does seem to love that area. It's addicting.

I don't care for a flat FR or upper and mid base personally. I could understand the Danley being a poor choice as a mid base cabinet.

Anyway, don't want to get too far off topic. Just sharing some experience.

[CECAA850]

Artto, whatever you decide on, PLEASE start a thread in the subwoofer section on the steps you take for integration into your system. I'd love to read it.

Thanks, Carl.

[artto]

Thnx to everyone that has responsed so far.

This is definitely for a music application, currently two-channel with center speaker. I may add two rear channel speakers at a later date. Unfortunately I've added large bass traps (Auralex MegaLENRD) in the rear corners where any rear channel speakers would go. For me, the smoothness of the bass response is more important than surround sound, as well as is bass extension. The system/room produces a huge wave front which most listeners perceive as going over their head and surrounding them to some extent anyway. There's also a possibility that I may add a projector for movies at a later date. I'm not really a big movie buff so that also will be of secondary importance.

Many of the horn loaded subs I've heard over the years seem to fall off dramatically at the lowest frequencies. IMHO, they simply aren't large enough to go down that far without substantial EQ. And I don't want to end up with that low-end rumble type of sound or the so-called one-note bass. OTOH I think many long-throw woofer subs tend to lack detail and fall short in the transient respone department. Obviously something like the Paradigm 2 with its (6) multiple drivers addresses this issue, albeit with somewhat small drivers (I'm a bass player and thoroughly understand the performance and tonal difference). But at what cost? $9000 is a little through the roof for a speaker with six 10" drivers, power amp and DSP included or not. And we're talking six 10's against three three large bass horns with 15" drivers. There's still has to be quite a difference in total distortion and certainly modulation distortion between the two.

I've done some frequency response tests on my system which some of you have probably seen in the Architectural section of the Forum. Because of the room's fundamental resonance the system seems to be down only about 9 or 10dB at 19-20Hz. I just need to lift this lowest end up a bit. I would think that the THT or tapped horn produces a clearer/cleaner sound but might not dig down as low where I need it. The long-throw woofer subs OTOH may be difficult to integrate tonally. That'sone reason why I'm considering a pair of the SVS PC13Ultra. That should "in theory" reduce the cone excursion by 1/2 and provide reduced distortion, and it's sitll about 1/3 the cost of a Paradigm 2. A pair of SVS also fit nicely between the center speaker and the large vertical diffusors.

[artto]

Artto, whatever you decide on, PLEASE start a thread in the subwoofer section on the steps you take for integration into your system. I'd love to read it.

Thanks, Carl.

LOL. I forgot that there even was a subwoofer section! Thnx for reminding me Carl.

[CECAA850]

I guess you can't do an IB then?

[mark1101]

It sounds like to me your more interested in a HT sub. You say it's for music, but your specs and examples of use make it sound more like you want a HT sub.

Choosing correctly makes a big difference you know. Before you buy something you should hear the difference between a pro music sub and a HT sub.

Honestly, you may be disappointed with a HT sub that has that low reach. They tend to sound bloated and slow in the more useable range.

For example, in the Klipsch line up it was determined that most listeners in a particular test preferred the 684 to the big 884 for music. The 884 has the low reach but was not agile like the 684.

I own a pair of Titan-48s from Bill F...............I REALLY like those. They are tight, powerful, and smooth with no boom. Don't let the specs fool you. You need to hear what the sub sounds like.

Just suggesting you listnen to the differences first, then choose.

[artto]

I guess you can't do an IB then?

What's an "IB"?

[CECAA850]

An Infinite Baffle subwoofer. It uses multiple drivers for low distortion. Mine will do 100dB @ 10Hz (corrected) at the listening position which is about 14' from the sub. My living room is not sealed and has 3 large openings. There's no sub in the room but the drivers must be mounted in a wall so that the back wave is wasted into an unused space (attic, basement etc).

[CECAA850]

The frequency response is similar to what you would see with a sealed sub as far as roll off goes. No peaks in respopnse like other alignments.

[artto]

An Infinite Baffle subwoofer. It uses multiple drivers for low distortion. Mine will do 100dB @ 10Hz (corrected) at the listening position which is about 14' from the sub. My living room is not sealed and has 3 large openings. There's no sub in the room but the drivers must be mounted in a wall so that the back wave is wasted into an unused space (attic, basement etc).

Oh ~ yes. Actually I was thinking of that. In fact that's what my original plans were years ago before these new fangled subs were available.

In the right rear corner of the room there's a stairway that comes down into the hall outside the right side rear wall of the room. For years I've thought of putting a large single driver or possibly several smaller drivers in there for a sub. It's open to the other side of the basement where the model railroad is. I plan on finishing the other side of the basement some day (maybe never, hah) and there's supposed to be a bathroom on the other side of the stairs, but I don't think that will be a problem. Do you really think that a single 15 or 18 or maybe three 12's mounted under the stairs as an infinite baffle would provide the best performance? I already have several Crown amps laying around doing nothing. I guess all I would need is a steep low pass filter at around 35Hz and some way of combining the L & R XLR outputs from the Mac if I use a single driver.

[CECAA850]

Mine is on THIS page. You don't have to build an array like mine. You can build a manifold (box) and install the drivers on 4 sides and then just have an opening into the room for the sound to enter.

[CECAA850]

For years I've thought of putting a large single driver or possibly several smaller drivers in there for a sub. It's open to the other side of the basement where the model railroad is. I plan on finishing the other side of the basement some day (maybe never, hah) and there's supposed to be a bathroom on the other side of the stairs, but I don't think that will be a problem. Do you really think that a single 15 or 18 or maybe three 12's mounted under the stairs as an infinite baffle would provide the best performance?

No, you'll need multiple 15's or 18's depending on the room size.