So how do the 402's Sound?

[RRFL]

That is exactly the benefit as the result is as close as you can get to exactly real.

Since we all know things swirl backwards down under.... I wonder if the cones have to move in reverse in order to get proper sound out of them?

Our cones have ice-cream in them. I noted that the Jubilee cones were polly and chocolate flavour coloured. I then went to the shop and got 2litres of Bulla Chocolate choc chip ice-cream and ate it all. The Dayton Audio Reference Series cones are black anodised aluminium and also work well with liquorice or strawberry ice-cream. with a re-cone kit you can make Ice Cream Sandwich to go with your Android.

at the correct temperature the sound is liquid and effervescent particularly when your using Rum & Rasin.[D]

[ClaudeJ1]

I was thinking about that the other night while playing at about 80-90 db. I bet you couldn't even see the cone move which is pretty amazing considering the sound they put out.

I remember going to Hope to meet PWK in 1985. In the museum, there was a pair of Plexiglas Khorns, which took about 1300 man-hours to build. The pupose was to show off the complex construction of the bass horn, but also it allowed Laser Interferometry measurements of the woofer, which Paul was interested. He had calculated the cone motion of a K-33 but wanted to measure it to verify. I think they measured it a full 120 db output to get the 1/16th inch figure. Pretty amazing if you ask me, but then again, a 2" throat horn get really loud and I'm sure that diaphragm moves a microscopic amount even at max. output also.

[jwc]

If you look at the Avatar, isn't it funny to think the midrange horn face is larger than the bass horn?? LOL

Well, the midhorn is "full space" and I bet your bass horn is 1/4 space calculated....~80Hz. So the bass horn is using your room to "assist" with the low end. The mid horn needs no "assist"

So lets have a ~80Hz bass horn full space or 1/2 space.....then the size of the mouths will be more proportional.

The cool part is the bass bin mouth will be Big.......yea.

jc

[ClaudeJ1]

If you look at the Avatar, isn't it funny to think the midrange horn face is larger than the bass horn?? LOL

Well, the midhorn is "full space" and I bet your bass horn is 1/4 space calculated....~80Hz. So the bass horn is using your room to "assist" with the low end. The mid horn needs no "assist"

So lets have a ~80Hz bass horn full space or 1/2 space.....then the size of the mouths will be more proportional.

The cool part is the bass bin mouth will be Big.......yea.

jc

I may build an 80 Hz. horn per our phone confab, JC. to replace the FH-1 as I too believe in straight axis horns down as low as possibble, and still use my Tapped Horn for everything (2.1 and 7.1).

Otherwise I will have to build a midbass from a 10" Pro Driver into a conical horn of some sort on top of the LAB Horn 3.0 (flat from 30-200 Hz. modified by Brad Litz) to take me up to 400-500 Hz. into the 402.

Iff I go that route, which means my R and L stacks will remain all-horn, but 4-way instead of 3 1/2 like now (the 1/2 being mono subwoof), but will go full range because the LAB Horn and it's derivatives is really a PA sub. Tom Danley told me that I can easily EQ it with about a +10 db boost to get it to 20 Hz. in my application, since it's indoors and will not use anywhere near the power it's capable of handling, which is something ridiculous like 2 Kilowatt peaks (I barely use a couple of watts now in the FH-1, and maybe 10 in the TH sub). I don't listen very loud, 85 db or less is typical...........I want to save my hearing for old age.

[dtel]

...........I want to save my hearing for old age.

I know how you feel, but I think were already there. [:$]

[ClaudeJ1]

...........I want to save my hearing for old age.

I know how you feel, but I think were already there.

No kidding. Most kids, when they reach 10 think 25 is old, so we are prehistoric to them.

[ClaudeJ1]

The cool part is the bass bin mouth will be Big.......yea.

jc

Well your system certainly bears this out and it appears that I'm heading down the same path, now doesn't it? Thanks for the encouragement, people tell me your setup is IMPRESSIVE. For a guy to abandon a 5-figure MacIntosh setup in favor of big horns says a lot.

[DizRotus]

Claude was kind to invite me (I actually invited myself) over to see and hear his system.

The sound is awsome. The imaging is superb. His 402 horns, as well as the rest of the system, produce some of the best sound I've heard. Female vocals were spooky real. I'd intended to bring Take Five to use for the audition, but forgot. I'm very familiar with the recording and performance. The piano, drums, cymbals, bass and sax are an excellent workout for excellent speakers.

Without me mentioning it, Claude put on Take Five, explaining that forum member Rigma had used it to demonstrate his Jubilee based system in Nashville. It was easy to place the piano to the right, the drums to the left, the bass at center right, and the sax at center left.

It was interesting to hear about the journey that led from Khorns to what he now uses. Claude has measured and tweaked his system to a very high degree. If I ever have the time and money to devote to more audio, I'd like to do something similar and to measure and tweak the results like Claude has done.

We didn't get a chance for me to experience the full potential of the tapped horn subwoofer. A neighbor in the condo complex banged on the wall to let it be known the Sunday afternoon serenade was not appreciated. Also, I had to get home to watch MSU beat OSU in the BIG 10 championship game.

Maybe it's the influence of the Mexican beer and Bell's Two Hearted Ale I enjoyed during the listening, but I ended up leaving with a pair of "some assembly required" Heresies. I'm listening to Kind of Blue from the speakers as I type. What a great opportunity to get some speakers to spruce up and to present to our older son in May as a present upon his graduation from George Washington University and to thank him for serving in Afghanistan.

I didn't leave the house with the intention of returning home with speakers, but as we were talking I mentioned that I was looking for Heresies to give to my son. Claude then graciously decided to let me have a pair that no longer have a place in his system. He was refurbishing them to go on eBay; instead he gave me a Klipsch Forum cash & carry discount.

It was a beautiful day in Southeast Michigan, so, naturally, we spent it in Claude's basement listenting to music and drinking beer. It's always a pleasure to be around someone who shares a passion for audio. We all know the experience of watching someone's eyes glaze over when we start explaining the attributes of horn-loaded speakers. Claude's expertise far exceeds mine. It was a genuine pleasure having an opportunity to see Claude's enthusiasm and justified pride in a job well done.

Thank you Claude.

[dtel]

It's always fun to get together, I love when people get to come listen and I always learn something when i hear others.

I am glad you like the sound and the 402, I think most people are about sick of me saying how much I love them, but it's the best sound I have ever had, hard not to get excited.

Claude has been on top of this pro thing for a while now and has tried as many different combinations, he does not hesitate to try a new horn or combination. [Y]

[ClaudeJ1]

It's always fun to get together, I love when people get to come listen and I always learn something when i hear others.

I am glad you like the sound and the 402, I think most people are about sick of me saying how much I love them, but it's the best sound I have ever had, hard not to get excited.

Claude has been on top of this pro thing for a while now and has tried as many different combinations, he does not hesitate to try a new horn or combination.

Thanks for the nice compliments, Neil and Eldon. It's been a 4 1/2 year journey with the Pro stuff ever since I heard the K402's with MWM bass that long ago. The key was to downsize my original "stacks" without compromosing the quality of the sound. I was extremely happy and proud with my last 4-way (with sub) configuration, so the goal here was to get better IMAGING by shortening the stack by a foot or more without compromising the quality of the 4-way. The curves correlate pretty well to what I hear and the sound is certainly different since I have different bass EQ and Xover points for the entire thing except for the tweeter, which is the same capacitor value with a different driver on the same horn lens, which is the next thing I will try as a new, affordable horn lens just became available the has been deemed good with the new tweeter drivers.

No matter what drivers and horns I have tried, the finishing touches have been provided by the AUDYSSEY room EQ built into my receiver. That is the "piece de resistance" for sure.

[DizRotus]

Yesterday I made a Pony Express run to shuttle Klipsch gear to another forum member via ClaudeJ1.

I went with every intention of making the delivery and returning home quickly. Claude twisted my arm to listen to his system with new horn lenses on the tweeters. I'll leave it to Claude to fill in the technical details, but suffice it to say they were extremely impressive.

The first thing that hit me was the imaging. Information was clearly coming from left, right and center. I assumed the Cornwall under the TV was the source of the centered material; it was not active. The spooky imaging was the result of strictly 2-channel. The center channel is used for HT only.

I especially like the fact that the new lenses are relatively inexpensive parts from Parts Express. I've never been one to seek out boutique parts. An inexpensive part that outperforms a more expensive and/or fashionable part is always preferred. In fact, PWK's philosophy was similar.

Unlike my first visit when a condo neighbor pounded on the wall, I was able to experience the full effect of Claude's Danley style tapped horn. During sections of the Tron remake, the low bass energy would flutter the legs of my jeans. The best part is the absence of exaggerated bass where none should be present, with the full impact when actually needed. If I have the time and money, a Danley style tapped horn is definitely in my DIY future.

Instead of 15 minutes and a hasty exit, after 2 hours and 2 Bell's Two Hearted Ales, I returned home.

Thank you Claude for your hospitality.

[Coytee]

Claude, Corrupter Extraordinare... [Y]

[ClaudeJ1]

Neil, you should write a novel. You are an excellent writer!! Thanks for the compliments.

[DizRotus]

Thanks Claude. But you know my dirty secret.

[ClaudeJ1]

The cool part is the bass bin mouth will be Big.......yea.

JC, my top end is starting to look like yours..........K402/K1133 and a 1" throat tweeter instead of a 2" like your K510/K69. According to Roy, your tweeter section is overkill for home but was designed to blast though a movie screen.........but that has never stopped you. LOL.

In fact my bottom has a similiar range as yours although I suspect yours has much lower distortion and the Tractrix "squeeze" of your midbass/bass horn is far superior to my "cheapScala" Peavey FH-1 which are a VERY solid build indeed. Next, I may build a pair of Volvotreter's 77 Hz. Conical bass horns since they are only 1 Meter long, but have that desirable STRAIGHT AXIS, that sound better IMHO, as taught to me by the amazing Peavey MB-1 horns.

[RRFL]

The cool part is the bass bin mouth will be Big.......yea.

JC, my top end is starting to look like yours..........K402/K1133 and a 1" throat tweeter instead of a 2" like your K510/K69. According to Roy, your tweeter section is overkill for home but was designed to blast though a movie screen.........but that has never stopped you. LOL.

In fact my bottom has a similiar range as yours although I suspect yours has much lower distortion and the Tractrix "squeeze" of your midbass/bass horn is far superior to my "cheapScala" Peavey FH-1 which are a VERY solid build indeed. Next, I may build a pair of Volvotreter's 77 Hz. Conical bass horns since they are only 1 Meter long, but have that desirable STRAIGHT AXIS, that sound better IMHO, as taught to me by the amazing Peavey MB-1 horns.

Those 77hz are sensational and I'm very keen on the 320hz Round Tractrix. Very artistic and would definitely please the girls. []. I'm sure the finish would be very durable and no evictions after dinner and drinks would be necessary.[6]

[ClaudeJ1]

The cool part is the bass bin mouth will be Big.......yea.

JC, my top end is starting to look like yours..........K402/K1133 and a 1" throat tweeter instead of a 2" like your K510/K69. According to Roy, your tweeter section is overkill for home but was designed to blast though a movie screen.........but that has never stopped you. LOL.

In fact my bottom has a similiar range as yours although I suspect yours has much lower distortion and the Tractrix "squeeze" of your midbass/bass horn is far superior to my "cheapScala" Peavey FH-1 which are a VERY solid build indeed. Next, I may build a pair of Volvotreter's 77 Hz. Conical bass horns since they are only 1 Meter long, but have that desirable STRAIGHT AXIS, that sound better IMHO, as taught to me by the amazing Peavey MB-1 horns.

Those 77hz are sensational and I'm very keen on the 320hz Round Tractrix. Very artistic and would definitely please the girls. . I'm sure the finish would be very durable and no evictions after dinner and drinks would be necessary.

Have you built Volvotreter's bass horns with the EVM 15L (Bruce Edgar's favorite woofer)???? If so, do you have measurements? If so, could you post a JPEG of the curve?

[RRFL]

The cool part is the bass bin mouth will be Big.......yea.

JC, my top end is starting to look like yours..........K402/K1133 and a 1" throat tweeter instead of a 2" like your K510/K69. According to Roy, your tweeter section is overkill for home but was designed to blast though a movie screen.........but that has never stopped you. LOL.

In fact my bottom has a similiar range as yours although I suspect yours has much lower distortion and the Tractrix "squeeze" of your midbass/bass horn is far superior to my "cheapScala" Peavey FH-1 which are a VERY solid build indeed. Next, I may build a pair of Volvotreter's 77 Hz. Conical bass horns since they are only 1 Meter long, but have that desirable STRAIGHT AXIS, that sound better IMHO, as taught to me by the amazing Peavey MB-1 horns.

Those 77hz are sensational and I'm very keen on the 320hz Round Tractrix. Very artistic and would definitely please the girls. . I'm sure the finish would be very durable and no evictions after dinner and drinks would be necessary.

Have you built Volvotreter's bass horns with the EVM 15L (Bruce Edgar's favorite woofer)???? If so, do you have measurements? If so, could you post a JPEG of the curve?

I have not built them, however, the design inspires me. I will consider these in the future after my current projects are completed.

[ClaudeJ1]

The domino effect in my move towards fewer folds in bass/midbass horn design was started by the Danley style Tapped Horn with LAB 12 woofer I now employ as a sub-sub woofer. I say this because with a slight 60 Hz bass boost, my 100 Hz. (LaScalas do this too) FH-1 sounds just fine on most music without the sub. So having that extra 2 octaves down below for music and movies is a huge variable that's taken care of. Many music recordings have very little content below 60 Hz. while some others contain 16 Hz. material, as pointed out to me by Mr. Sub himself, Michael Hurd (I experienced his multi kilobuck sub with one 18 and two 18 Passives at Indy Klipsch Fan's house many moons ago). With 3 Kilowatts of Crown power, the walls were flexing and it sounded like the plane in Pheonix was crashing into the house. My sub does this too with less driver Sd and more lumber.

So, for as fine as Khorn bass is, along with LaScala type bass, ported or not, I still feel that a straight axis horn has fewer anomalies, measurable and audible, down to about 80 Hz.

My Tapped Horn, coffe table folded sub is an 18 ft. long horn when it behaves as a 1/4 wave device and 36 ft. long from the back wave traveling back in. The performance is, by far, the least compromised sub design IMHO, in terms of size, weight, efficiency, group delay, bandwitdth, transient response, distortion, etc. you name it.

Now that the hardest part of the spectrum.......the bottom 2 1/2 octave is handled so well in my room, I am able to look for straight axis horn designs from 60 Hz. on up. It's a great opportunity to have a folded horn where it's absolutely needed and straight axis horns where it's practical to do. Bruce Edgar's Titan design is a great example of this. I am very happy with the sound of my midrange, most important part, tweeter, and sub bass. The only place that might be improved would be to make a straight axis horn from 80-500 Hz. and Volvotreter's design looks promising. I may try to modify the shape of the rear chamber to fit better into a corner, and add some "wings" on the side to get better loading and provide something to bolt my mid and tweeter horns onto that also look good. Finished Oak plywood would eventually match my oak plywood coffee table sub. I will post measurements of this thing if I ever build it and in case I beat you to it.

[RRFL]

The domino effect in my move towards fewer folds in bass/midbass horn design was started by the Danley style Tapped Horn with LAB 12 woofer I now employ as a sub-sub woofer. I say this because with a slight 60 Hz bass boost, my 100 Hz. (LaScalas do this too) FH-1 sounds just fine on most music without the sub. So having that extra 2 octaves down below for music and movies is a huge variable that's taken care of. Many music recordings have very little content below 60 Hz. while some others contain 16 Hz. material, as pointed out to me by Mr. Sub himself, Michael Hurd (I experienced his multi kilobuck sub with one 18 and two 18 Passives at Indy Klipsch Fan's house many moons ago). With 3 Kilowatts of Crown power, the walls were flexing and it sounded like the plane in Pheonix was crashing into the house. My sub does this too with less driver Sd and more lumber.

So, for as fine as Khorn bass is, along with LaScala type bass, ported or not, I still feel that a straight axis horn has fewer anomalies, measurable and audible, down to about 80 Hz.

My Tapped Horn, coffe table folded sub is an 18 ft. long horn when it behaves as a 1/4 wave device and 36 ft. long from the back wave traveling back in. The performance is, by far, the least compromised sub design IMHO, in terms of size, weight, efficiency, group delay, bandwitdth, transient response, distortion, etc. you name it.

Now that the hardest part of the spectrum.......the bottom 2 1/2 octave is handled so well in my room, I am able to look for straight axis horn designs from 60 Hz. on up. It's a great opportunity to have a folded horn where it's absolutely needed and straight axis horns where it's practical to do. Bruce Edgar's Titan design is a great example of this. I am very happy with the sound of my midrange, most important part, tweeter, and sub bass. The only place that might be improved would be to make a straight axis horn from 80-500 Hz. and Volvotreter's design looks promising. I may try to modify the shape of the rear chamber to fit better into a corner, and add some "wings" on the side to get better loading and provide something to bolt my mid and tweeter horns onto that also look good. Finished Oak plywood would eventually match my oak plywood coffee table sub. I will post measurements of this thing if I ever build it and in case I beat you to it.

Your concept is very interesting. I hope you get yours built so you can enjoy it.