What model Klipsch horn is this?

[Coytee]

Lastly I'll keep my eyes out for some TAD-4003.

I don't know much about the TAD drivers. I do however, understand that the TAD 4003 is the new/replacement to the 4002 and another driver (or so I think)

Main point is... I don't think that there is any curve / compensation (not sure what the right word is) done by Roy on the 4003.

It might curve the same as the 4002 for all I know. I just wanted to make that point that since the 4003 is so new, I don't think Roy's ever had one (that I'm aware of) to blend it into use with the K402.

The TAD 4002 on the other hand, is essentially plug & play since it's been put into the chamber and the eq curve is known for it.

[seti]

I like the 403 because it doesn't need any eq. This is with the b&c de82tn.

Hey seti your statement is a good example of one of the great widespread misunderstandings about horns.

The K403 is the "EQ"

It's using a collasping vert polar as many horns have done to compensate for the natural rolloff of the compression driver.

The problem with this approach is "to have a flat on axis response" also requires the horn to be very unflat and inaccurate off axis.

This doesn't mean we can't get good sound with horns like this of course but don't be deceived it is a less accurate approach. The density and temporal decay in a room vs frequency is greatly affected by this inaccuracy.

It might help to look at it this way. If a horn is accurate and treats all frequencies that we ask it to reproduce in both the amplitude, phase and polar domains then horns with collasping polars are innacurate. They color the off axis energy to compensate(EQ) the on-axis response.

Both accurate on-axis and off-axis response has potential advantages that these collasping horns can never acheive by their design.

So sorry but if EQ is going to be used as a dirty word I'm afraid your K403 uses EQing acoustically and at the same time it is coloring(EQing in a bad way) all of the vertical off axis angles.

The advantage a horn like the K402 offers is this acoustical accuracy in both on-axis and off-axis that the collasping polar design can never offer.

miketn

I was not using EQ as a "dirty word" just a matter of fact. Sorry if I offended you.

Yes I understand but I wasn't being that specific. Still the 403 doesn't need electronic crossover eq settings or eq in the passive crossover. I like the collapsing verticals. I prefer the EQ in the horn myself. Mostly because it is easier for me and requires less work. If collapsing verticals were good enough for PWK they are good enough for me as well. Roy and PWK made a great horn.

I've compared the 403 to the tractrix horn combinations and the 402 with various drivers and the 402/510. It held its own very well. What I thought was head and shoulders the best was the 402/510 combo. It is bad ***.

Sory if you took offense but I was not knocking the 402. I've never said a bad thing about it.

[mikebse2a3]

"That response on the 403 looks pretty good to me. Anyone have something similar on the 402? "

Hey artto

As I'm sure you know the problem with a single curve like this is it's just one indicator of the performance of a horn/driver and doesn't even begin on it's own to help us know how we will perceive it own it's own let alone once it's integrated with the listening room.

I'm sure there are curves of the K402/K69-A and K402/TAD4002 around that look very good on axis. The TAD's superiority over the K69-A for example isn't really discernible in a plot like this but when you look at the behavior of the drivers in the time domain you will see that the TAD has superior transient decay and less resonances that does correlate with a perceived increase in dynamics and clarity of reproduction. The important and very audible polar behavior of the horn/driver isn't readily discernable in this plot also which will play a very important part in how we perceive the sound of this system in any given room.

What I believe you would find is with the K402 you have the real potential to have a less frequency dependent and improved density/temporal accuracy of the decay in your listening room (ie: an improvement in approaching a beneficial decaying diffusive state). You obviousely already know the benefits of diffusers and diffusion and the improved off-axis accuracy of the K402 should have the potential to complement your listening room. The potential is to have an increase in the listening experience that images well, sounds accurate and immersive in a natural way.

miketn

edit: here you go artto......the Jub LF isn't in a corner in this plot but pretty nice don't you think for what it tells us?

[mikebse2a3]

Sory if you took offense but I was not knocking the 402. I've never said a bad thing about it.

seti I was never offended by what you said..[]

The reason I bring attention to what you posted was there is so much misunderstanding of what is happening with horns. If you prefer something by all means enjoy but when you say there is no EQ it isn't correct.

As I said in an early post that I thought the K403 sounds good and I'm glad you own it because I know how much that means to you!

The fact is the horn that is most accurate to reproducing the response from the driver is the K402 type design vs the collasping polar designs. The fact that we have to pretreat the electrical drive voltage should not be seen as a negative in itself. Pretreating electrical signals is done in loudspeakers (passive and active) all the time as well as LP playback and Tape Playback and if done properly it leads to a more accurate reproduction in the real world we live in.

I like the collapsing verticals. I prefer the EQ in the horn myself. Mostly because it is easier for me and requires less work. If collapsing verticals were good enough for PWK they are good enough for me as well. Roy and PWK made a great horn.

I know you've heard Roy tell how PWK came to change his mind and reach the conclusion that the tractrix horns could be superior to the exponetial horns once he read the research data and heard them. Do you not think the same thing could have been possible if PWK had been given more time in this world about the importance of accuracy in both the vertical and horizontal polars over the full bandwidth of a horn?

Obviously as I already had posted very good sound can be had with horns that collaspe the vertical but we can have the potential for even better reproduction if we maintain accuracy in both vertical and horizontal.

Just to be clear to seti and anyone else that might misunderstand my comments or purpose in my posting.......I am only trying to point out facts and details that might be overlooked and misunderstood as well as to learn from others posting their experiences and knowledge and I hope others are posting for the same reasons.

Everyone has a right to pursue this hobby any way they find enjoyable!

miketn

[seti]

Sory if you took offense but I was not knocking the 402. I've never said a bad thing about it.

seti I was never offended by what you said..

The reason I bring attention to what you posted was there is so much misunderstanding of what is happening with horns. If you prefer something by all means enjoy but when you say there is no EQ it isn't correct.

As I said in an early post that I thought the K403 sounds good and I'm glad you own it because I know how much that means to you!

The fact is the horn that is most accurate to reproducing the response from the driver is the K402 type design vs the collasping polar designs. The fact that we have to pretreat the electrical drive voltage should not be seen as a negative in itself. Pretreating electrical signals is done in loudspeakers (passive and active) all the time as well as LP playback and Tape Playback and if done properly it leads to a more accurate reproduction in the real world we live in.

I like the collapsing verticals. I prefer the EQ in the horn myself. Mostly because it is easier for me and requires less work. If collapsing verticals were good enough for PWK they are good enough for me as well. Roy and PWK made a great horn.

I know you've heard Roy tell how PWK came to change his mind and reach the conclusion that the tractrix horns could be superior to the exponetial horns once he read the research data and heard them. Do you not think the same thing could have been possible if PWK had been given more time in this world about the importance of accuracy in both the vertical and horizontal polars over the full bandwidth of a horn?

Obviously as I already had posted very good sound can be had with horns that collaspe the vertical but we can have the potential for even better reproduction if we maintain accuracy in both vertical and horizontal.

Just to be clear to seti and anyone else that might misunderstand my comments or purpose in my posting.......I am only trying to point out facts and details that might be overlooked and misunderstood as well as to learn from others posting their experiences and knowledge and I hope others are posting for the same reasons.

Everyone has a right to pursue this hobby any way they find enjoyable!

miketn

The bold type makes it seem like your yelling... LOL

Ok there is no external EQ.... There is EQ in the horn. Where it should be. To put it simply some horns are easier to utilize than others. I'm thankful PWK did it in the horn as that makes it easier for me to use and lets you use a very simple passive crossover. I think this is the right way to do it in the home environment. I think it was the right compromise for a home environment horn driver combo. We can see this in PWK horns from the K5 to the 403. This is my opinion and we know what they are like everyone has one so no need to argue about it.

No I don't think so but we could speculate till the flying cows come home on what would have been. Truthfuly we can only speculate. I'm greatful for all the great horns we did get from PWK. The 403 was the last HF horn PWK and Roy built together. This horn is the essense of PWK and Roy design. It is conical then tractrix with callapsing vertical. This is why it is one of my favorite horns because it has design features of my fave horn builders. Its ease of implamentation makes it a no brainer for me. Only compared to the 402 could it be considered small LOL.. The 402 403 and 510 have more in common than dissimilar being conical and then tractrix. But if you look at what I thought sounds the best it is the 402/510 combo.. That combo is on my shopping list. I can't wait to see what other horns come from the cinema line. Gotta like state of the art cinema systems.

I
really like all these horns and have not a bad thing to say about any of them. I could be blissfully happy with a 402 or a 510 or 403 or even some of the pure tractrix combinations but if I had the 402/510 I'd never look at another horn top end.

I could be right I could be wrong but I like what I hear.

[mikebse2a3]

Hey seti.....the bold type is to help me read .....sorry I sure wasn't yelling. I really don't know a lot of the internet etiquette .... It's just how I write.

miketn

[Daddy Dee]

In the listening I've done, the 403 sounds very good to my ears. Also have heard the 402 and 510 and think they make for killer systems.

If I could purchase a 403, that would my personal choice for having jubes at home. My criteria have to do with pleasing sound, simplicity of the crossover and system, WAF and assumed economy (if the 403 was being built).

[seti]

I'm in IT so when I get bold emails it is because people are pissed. But ya'll are right it is much easier to read. Perhaps bold could be the default txt format of the forum.....

[Coytee]

Perhaps bold could be the default txt format of the forum.....

Since we're all deaf anyway... why not!

[]