K-Horns Bass

jaklipsch · June 14, 2002

HELP !! I have just recieved my " New " K-horns, they are 16u5xx serial numbers . I do not yet have them in the room they will be used and they are not in the corners of the room either. The Bass is not very " pronounced " with them in the middle of the room .....not in the corners...will this " fix " its self when they are in the corners ? Also, the corners where they will permanently reside do not have very long walls in the corners....the speakers have a length on the diagonal of 22inches ...the corners of the room each have one leg of 19inches ...with a window that will make up the remaining 3inches or so . will this be a terrible problem? I know they would sound "better" if a full wall was available....but will the difference be great ?? Would the crossovers being replaced be of value ?? they have the Type AA at this time . HELP !!!!!! Thanks for your expertise !!!

justin_tx_16 · June 15, 2002

the larger the horn, the lower it can go. using the walls as an extension on the actual horn should help bring down the low frequency arena. put them in corners, then let us know how they sound.

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Audible Nectar · June 15, 2002

Yes, you want to put the Khorns tight into the corner. If the window will not allow the Khorn to slide completely into the corner, (causing it not to "seal") you will lose some bass. Some have built "false corners" for Khorns to solve problems with corner placement. This is more of an issue than the crossover, IMO.

I would not change the crossover now - I would listen to them for a good while first (6 months to a year) - then decide if the AA is OK for you. If not, there are options here, including the ALK aftermarket crossovers, which are well regarded here.

HDBRbuilder · June 15, 2002

The reason you're losing alot of bass from the k-horns is because the design REQUIRES a corner fit to complete the BASS HORN portion of the speaker. K-horns are designed so that the corners become a PART of the speaker...in other words, without a COMPLETE corner for them to use, they cannot function properly.

The last stage of the FOLDED bass horn BEFORE it is positioned in a corner, has all of the bass directed at the tailpiece(the vertical piece of plywood at the extreme rear of the k-horn bass bin), where it is intended to be reflected out along CORNER walls, directing the bass forward along the walls from the corner and the angled sides of the bass bin...which COMPLETE the design of the bass horn. With the k-horn NOT positioned in a corner, its bass is dissipated to its sides and rear instead of being DIRECTED forward...and it is very much diminished, not reaching the lower range nearly as effectively!

If a window is interfering with TIGHT placement of the k-horns COMPLETELY into the corner, then you may need to build some false corners to set the k-horns in, and set the speakers out from that wall enough to clear the window ledge. Another advantage of false corners is that you can angle the k-horns more towards your "sweet spot" in your room. I would suggest false corners. False corners are not a difficult thing to build either. Any semi-competent carpenter SHOULD be able to build these for you...or you can build them yourself.

As for networks, the AA is one of the better factory ones for the k-horn...If you decide to up-grade, it can be modified, or a better solution is one of the ALK networks...around 500 bucks a pair! Listen to them properly set-up for awhile before fooling around with networks...you may find you like them just fine the way they are!

Some people on this forum will suggest a plethora of mods to the k-horn...many of which are far less cost effective for the "added improvement" you MAY hear...but if you have very deep pockets and can afford such, then go for it!! Your call!

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This message has been edited by HDBRbuilder on 06-15-2002 at 07:17 AM

jaklipsch · June 15, 2002

Thanks HDBR , I know they are supposed to be in the corner , just wondered how much they will loose with onlt 3 inches on only one side not "married" to the wall . The rest will be against a wood 3/4 in thick spruce wall . In your opinion the ALK's do make a difference ?? Thanks gang for the expertise !!

WMcD · June 15, 2002

It is a bit difficult to understand the geometry you're talking about. Picture?

It may be that you're talking about a window recess in the wall rather than a sill which sticks out. If the first, the rest of the horn is abutting a wall for 19 inches. It might not be so bad.

I can't comment on Al K's cross overs, not having heard them. They get rave reviews though!

One issue may be whether you're looking to them, or any crossover to increase bass response

My recall is that their bass circuit is close to Klipch's. So there will probably not be a gain, or loss, in the bass at any range.

More importantly, the bass crossovers have an effect at about 400 Hz, and doesn't change things in the deep bass at all. So no crossover is going to alter that directly.

On the other hand. By some standards, lack of bass is just excess of mid and treble. Al's crossovers might be useful to eliminate some troublesome mid and treble issues. There is some debate over whether there are such issues. But I point out the issue for the sake of completeness and honesty.

Congrats on your purchase.

Gil

HDBRbuilder · June 15, 2002

Ja,

For the k-horns to function PROPERLY, they need to have corner walls that extend AT LEAST as far as a line crossing the front of the speaker to each wall on either side of it...that point is where the mouth of the bass horn is supposed to be!!

I still recommend false corners for the following reasons:

1. First of all you will allow the k-horns to have the recommended MINIMUM length of wall on either side of them.

2. You mentioned they will be in a fairly small room, so...with false corners, you can actually angle the speakers to point directly at your "sweet spot" for listening in that room...a big plus in small rooms!!

3. False corners are a relatively inexpensive "fix" for both of these problems above.

With your k-horns finally mounted into proper corners, whether real or false, you will finally see how well their folded horm bass bin actually works...You can get no idea at all of their capability unless they are at least in a corner...and with them sitting out from the corners as you have them now, they lose a HUGE amount of what they are capable of producing in the bass range!! The difference will be like night and day...trust me!!

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djk · June 16, 2002

Bass in the corner. Black curve is concrete block construction. Red curve is sheetrock construction. False corners will not be as good as these curves. Data taken with 8hz 1/3 oct warbletones.

http://www.speakerbuilding.com/content/1032/klipsch.gif

This message has been edited by djk on 06-16-2002 at 08:59 PM

jaklipsch · June 16, 2002

William F.

Exactly, the window will recess for the approx the last 3 inches ( the front of the speaker)the reas will be married to a 3/4 in spruce wall , 6in studs , insulated very well with stone on the outside of the house.

HDBR

The room is not small.........40 X 40 with cathedral ceilings 34ft tall , hardwood floors , lots of glass and a stone fireplace 9ft wide and 34ft tall . I can build the false walls if needed , not a problem !!

Thanks for all the input gang....keep it coming !! Really getting excited to get the house done to really listen to them, they are in a small room now 13 X 20 and sitting in front of each other with the nearest wall 4feet away !!!

HDBRbuilder · June 16, 2002

RE: DJK's blanket statement: "False corners will not be as good as these curves."

I GUARANTEE you that I can build false corners that will allow K-horns to outperform ANY studded drywall home corner EVER built!! AND any damned concrete block wall, too!!

Making a blanket statement like that about performance with a drywall-sheathed home corner is like saying that a Yugo is the SAME as a BMW 7-series sedan!!

There is a world of difference between corners covered with drywall in ANY home...even within the SAME home!! Studded walls of southern yellow pine covered with drywall will have a GENERALLY better performance than those studded with fir, or hemlock, or ANY of the softer conifer woods...all other factors being equal! And it also makes a difference if the studs are on 16 inch centers or the old 24 inch centers. Once you add in the factor of whether construction adhesive, drywall nails, or drywall screws...or any combination of them was used...it makes a world of difference!! AND the thickness and density of the drywall makes a difference too!! Even concrete block types are different from each other!! Then you have to add in the insulation factor, too!!

Those measurements given aren't worth the time it took to take them as for performance, because they are too limited and not from a cross-sample average!! I also GUARANTEE you that I can take k-horns to a number of different concrete block wall corners and dry-walled corners and end up with a complete PLETHORA of different test results than those curves shown on that site!!

If we are to take stock in "scientific" measurements, let's at least do it in a scientific manner!! GEEZ!!

In Europe, and Scandinavia in particular(where these measurements were actually taken), they don't use the same building materials we do here in the USA...lots of difference!! Even in the USA, different materials are used in different areas!!

If you do a good job building some false corners, and use the right materials, you will have great performance out of those k-horns!! Nuff said!!

Just another example of bullshit measurements as far as I am concerned!! PWK would have loved debating that blanket statement, ESPECIALLY since his OWN k-horns in his own living room are nestled into FALSE CORNERS!! LOL!

Sometimes I just laugh my arse off about all of the references given to "white papers" and "testing results" given in this forum...as if any clown who takes the time to post some results he CLAIMS to have will see his results provide ANY REAL insight whatsoever to what a particular performance of a particular speaker in a particular person's listening environment will be to that particular person's particular ears!!...EXCEPT TO HIS OWN!!!

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This message has been edited by HDBRbuilder on 06-16-2002 at 01:03 PM

jaklipsch · June 16, 2002

HDBR

Concerning the construction of false corners.....Read another thread discussing the choice of plywood for a speaker enclosure, you recommended 3/4 birch...are you familar with Advantech.....a tongue & groove sub-flooring , very high resin 7/8 waferboard that is actually more dense and stiffer than any other 3/4 plywood. Would this be a good choice for false corners ?? Do you have a diagram for the corners ?? Can they be attached to the cabinets or just placed next to them ?? Should they extend past the diagonal of the K-horn to a projected line abeam the frontal edge of the cabinet ?? Thanks

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WMcD · June 16, 2002

I have a couple of observations or opinions. Anyone should feel free to jump in and correct me.

- - - -

The Klipsch Museum is in what is called the Telephone Building. This was the telephoe exchange building on the Army post built during the war. It has some very tall windows.

This evidently was a bit of a showroom by Klipsch at one time.

One of the windows is very close to a corner. It has a sill which exends into the room beyond the plane of the wall.

I noticed that the sill had been partially cut away on the side toward the corner. I concluded at the time that a K-Horn had been placed there and the carpentry was necessary to get a good fit.

Perhaps someone can confirm my memory. The windows face the factory building. At the museum, the corner to the left of that one has a K-Horn with an intricate cabinet.

The bottom line is that you may take some solice that at one time the factory had the window problem. Of course I can't confirm that they found it acceptable.

- - - - -

I don't have much confidence in the graphs posted. Not that I doubt the bona fides of the gentleman making them. Rather, we don't know if a lot of variable were controlled for. For example, I've wondered whether some bass boost we find when putting the horns in the corner tightly, is not the wall acting as a sounding board.

You'd think that concrete wall would resonate less. But I still wonder.

- - - - - -

Finally, I suspect that a good corner is only part of the story in getting a K-Horn to perform. As I've commented on before, the AES paper on the Jubilee shows something odd. When the K-Horn was put in a corner outside, the bass rolls off to an alarming extent. And recall, this was Klipsch and Roy Delgato doing the tests. Reliable.

In contrast, Richard Heyster's review of the K-Horn in a room shows no roll off except just below 40 Hz. He was pretty much top dog in measurement at the time. Again, reliable.

I conclude that in Heyster's test, the room gain was playing a big part. Not that this is fudging data. Rather, we learn that the geometry of the room plays a big part in setting the bass response.

- - - - - -

My conclusion is that maybe a three inch gap is not something to worry about. Room size and dimensions may have a much greater influence. The bad news is that you can't do to much about those items.

Regards,

Gil

djk · June 16, 2002

"My conclusion is that maybe a three inch gap is not something to worry about. Room size and dimensions may have a much greater influence. The bad news is that you can't do to much about those items." You're correct here as far as the deep bass goes. A three inch gap in the corner will only affect the midrange above 200hz, there is a Dope from Hope on this subject. The reason why the JAES article shows less bass than you expect is because of the anechoic nature of the measurements. The more flimsy your walls are the less bass you will have. That means it is 'leaking' outside of the room. Unless the midrange and treble is also 'leaking' out in the same proportion then there will be less bass in the room. Even if the false corners were perfect reflectors down to DC, the room with flimsy wall construction will sound 'lightweight' in the bass. Actually, the curve in the link is quite close to the JAES curve, with the DIY having a bit more deep bass due to the above mentioned reasons.

HDBRbuilder · June 16, 2002

JA,

If I were to build flase corners for k-horns, I would use baltic birch in its approximate 3/4" thickness for the sheathing and for torsional cross-bracing(inlet into dadoes of studs at diagonals on each wall, diagonaling in opposite directions on each side of the wall...for each wall). Studs would be on 12" centers, with doubled thickness floorplate section and top plate section...all attached with construction adhesive and screws. Wall end studs would also be double thickness. Corner joint would be built using construction adhesive and lag screws, with flat AND lock washers at screw heads. The two walls would be tied together at the base with a floor section of the same baltic birch used for the sheathing of the walls. The k-horns would sit in this complete corner...and, if at all possible, the corner, once positioned, would be anchored to the floor. Before attaching the sheathing to the outside of the corners(the sides AWAY from the speaker), I would use a good quality expanding foam insulation between the "studs, and wshvae it off even...then attach the outer sheathing to those sides...again using construction adhesive and screws.

To dress it up, contact adhesives may be used to apply paneling or whatever to the outside of the sheathing..or the plain baltic birch plywood could have its screw heads spackled and the whole thing painted....whatever.

The sides of the bass bin have been baltic birch for a number of years, and making the insides of the false corners of the same type of material can only enhance the performance of a k-horn, since both sides of the final length of the horn to its intended mouth would be of the same material, providing the same resonance qualities...think about it!!

Yes, I would bring the sides of the false corner to AT LEAST a length running forward to where they end on the same line as the front of the k-horn...or even a bit farther out...your call.

For a room 40x40 feet, with k-horns in the actual corners, your sweet spot would be the room's dead center...but...40 feet is a long distance apart for k-horns...and you DEFINITELY need a center channel speaker for filler if the k-horns are placed that far apart from each other...I hope you are planning this!!

I hope I explained the construction I would use for a false corner well enough. There is a "dope from hope" paper detailing a free-standing false corner construction...but my method of building it would add alot more rigidity to it...and be alot heavier, too!! The added weight, considering the ones I would build would have a floor in them for the k-horn to sit on, will definitely get the horns in solid contact with the floor...which is also supposed to be an extension of the k-horn folded bass horn design...something to consider, too!

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This message has been edited by HDBRbuilder on 06-17-2002 at 12:03 AM

HDBRbuilder · June 17, 2002

Gil,

The wooden building across from the red brick building was PWK's first "factory" after he left his cramped little shed. Then the red brick building became the factory, and the "museum" building became his office and his lab...it remained his "lab" for many years...even after the steel factory buildings were originally built...the red brick building becoming the company office complex...then, later it became the museum when the old "WOUNDED BUFFALO" structure behind the red brick building became the lab...which has been added to alot over the last 25 years!!

"Wounded Buffalo" was originally the building where that company assembled the two halves of the mid-horn castings and machined and tapped the throats of them for drivers...it was owned by Tommy Crouch, for a number of years...until he left the company. Alot of folks don't realize those metal mid-horns came in two halves that were brazed together, then the excess brazing on the seams was ground off...the horn throats were milled and tapped...and then painted and sent over to the factory. Most folks think those horns were cast in one piece and the grinding marks were just to remove flashing from the parting line of the casting...but they are wrong!!

I imagine that when the only building the company had to work out of was the current "museum" building, they pretty much had to put a k-horn into any corners they could find in it for testing...it was later on that PWK started using a false corner bin in that building to test the completed k-horns in. Where that window facing was removed/trimmed back, PWK had at one time attached a large sheet of plywood to the wall there...providing a better corner for the k-horn testing in those early days. All of that changed when the "wounded buffalo" building was turned into the lab in the early 1980's and the first anechoic chamber was built as an addition to the former "wounded buffalo" building. Metal siding was also added to the old "museum" building sometime in the late 1970's...it is quite different inside now than it was when I started working at Klipsch in 1976, too!

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This message has been edited by HDBRbuilder on 06-17-2002 at 12:39 AM

Klipschguy · June 17, 2002

How about just closing the backs with some high density 3/4" plywood? Then sealing them against the corners shouldn't be such a hassle. Thoughts?

Andy

esker · June 17, 2002

For false corners, I've used a bookcase and a record (LP) cabinet backed up to the horns. It worked quite well, as the cabinets were packed tight.

HDBRbuilder · June 17, 2002

"Closing the backs with some high density 3/4" plywood"? I certainly hope you don't mean what it SOUNDS like you mean! Please clarify that statement for me?

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SOUNDJUNKIE · June 20, 2002

quote:

Originally posted by HDBRbuilder:

RE: DJK's blanket statement: "False corners will not be as good as these curves."