djk Posted June 22, 2002 Share Posted June 22, 2002 As a practical matter I would like to see power handling defined as the point of 3dB power compression. Yeah, the JBL2206 will handle 600W without bursting into flames instantly (it is only a question of time). But really, is it a 600W woofer when the last 3dB of power input only gives 1.5dB more sound output? http://www.jblpro.com/pages/pub/components/2206.pdf What about the similar 2241 18" woofer? In the JBL recommended box it will hit x-max with 5.2dB less than rated power. What good is a 600W thermal rating when the cone hits x-max with only 180W? Maybe two numbers are needed, a 3dB power compression number and an x-max in optimum box number. There are other considerations of course, but this might be a place to start. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stumped Posted June 23, 2002 Author Share Posted June 23, 2002 Okay, so after reading these threads (and taking two tylenol) I guess what we're working with here is that the older specs are incorrect and the newer ones are, including the new stats (63hz to 20khz) for the freq response. I guess this means that Klipsch didn't really accurately test their speakers until recently and were just following the ol' ten times the power for double the sound theory for all those years? I reckon it's gotta be, because according to JimG, absolutely nothing has changed on the Heresy. Thanks to everybody who took the time to read and answer this question! :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDBRbuilder Posted June 23, 2002 Share Posted June 23, 2002 I would venture to say that there MAY have been changes in the woofer since the beginning of the Heresy II in 1985...as well as other drivers and/or horn lenses. Any and/or all of the above changes LIKELY ALSO resulted in a change in the cross-over network for the Heresy II since it began in production in 1985. The fact that THIS YEAR's Heresy II has been UNCHANGED for "sometime now" according to JimG, doesn't necessarily mean it wasn't changed SOMETIME since its production run began. Further clarification of the changes made (and when they occured) since the very first Heresy II went into production in 1985 may be in order to at least PARTIALLY account for the given performance data of today vs. the previously given performance data. And that subject has somehow been overlooked so far by those from Klipsch who have given information. I would venture to say that once these changes from the original Heresy II are noted, it will be much easier to determine the cause of the differences in measured test data on this speaker which were given at different times during its production history. I definitely WOULD NOT venture to say that sloppy testing procedures were performed on the Heresy II previous to the present time, especially since the same anechoic chamber was available throughout its production lifespan, AND since many of the same engineers on the staff now were on the staff then!! I sincerely believe that JimG was being honest in his statements about the changes...but we still don't know WHEN the last changes in the Heresy II occured, or WHEN the previous data was originally released. ------------------ I can now receive private messages Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JimG Posted June 24, 2002 Share Posted June 24, 2002 This is getting into fuzzy territory for me now so forgive me if I'm wrong or too vague, but I do believe that the woofer for the Heresy II was resourced about a year and a half ago (???). It was resourced along with most, if not all of the pro woofers when the previous supplier stopped making them. (The Heresy woofer is used in at least one pro model.) I would guess that the change in suppliers had to have affected the woofers low end performance in some manner given the change in specs. The change may not be as dramatic as the specs lead one to believe though. Again, I'm unfamiliar with how this model has changed since its introduction in 1985, but I believe the last change was this woofer resource. That's about the extent of what I know - I'm not involved with the Heritage series or Pro series products so I don't have all of the details. Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stumped Posted June 24, 2002 Author Share Posted June 24, 2002 After reading down this thread, there still seems to be uncertainty about this whole issue. LOL. I take it that it's next to impossible to get the actual facts concerning the above issues of speaker component changes on the Heresy (if any) and of the validity of past and present company testing results on the Heresy. Sounds kinda like we're working in the government, trying to explain why 9-11 or Enron happend, doesn't it?! There are lots of theories and guesses but no iron-clad facts to appropriately answer the questions at hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDBRbuilder Posted June 24, 2002 Share Posted June 24, 2002 Stumped, Don't get all hung up over testing results....NOBODY lives in an anechoic chamber, anyway. Just listen to em and enjoy em!! ------------------ I can now receive private messages Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Okemopoma Posted May 24, 2012 Share Posted May 24, 2012 This thread has been bugging me since I read it. So I did a little experiment as far as the low end frequency response goes for the Heresy II's. I have a pair of Heresy II's made in '89 hooked up to a Cambridge Audio azure 651A integrated amp (75W per channel). The amp has a DAC USB input that I can hook my laptop to. I downloaded a signal generator program for the laptop and a decibel meter app for my phone. No professional measuring stuff here. Just something that would give some idea of whats happening. I placed the phone (meter) on a chair one meter from the speaker. Very surprising result. Not only did the Heresy II produce the 50 HZ tone very audibly, but it did it with very little db loss from 100 HZ. In fact the volume didn't really start trailing off drastically until I got below 35 HZ! Below 35 the woofers are still moving but without enough volume to feel or hear the tone. But way down there on the scale your not really hearing anyway, just feeling it. Here is the ironic part. I did this same test with my Cambridge Soundworks Basscube 105 10" sub low passed at 85 HZ with just about the same results. The only big difference with the powered sub is you can increase the level to compensate as the bottom end drops off. Its just the same as increasing your bass tone control on your amp. If the sub is properly in phase with the speakers all you are really doing is doubling up the bass below your low pass setting. In other words the sub is a very expensive tone control nob when used with the Heresy II's. It seems today all the "new" systems way overemphasize bass response. If the floor isn't shaking and your chest isn't pounding there must be something wrong. Even all the new car audio systems are all geared towards big bass. Realism has been thrown to the wayside. Well, thats my two cents on the subject. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest " " Posted May 24, 2012 Share Posted May 24, 2012 Heresy II produce the 50 HZ tone very audibly, but it did it with very little db loss from 100 HZThis would make sense since -10 db from 120hz would sound the same at 100hz and 50hz. They are both -10 db Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClaudeJ1 Posted May 24, 2012 Share Posted May 24, 2012 It seems today all the "new" systems way overemphasize bass response. If the floor isn't shaking and your chest isn't pounding there must be something wrong. Even all the new car audio systems are all geared towards big bass. Realism has been thrown to the wayside. Well, thats my two cents on the subject. You have stated the problem very well. Back in PWK's day, I believe he stated his speakers were for the 1% of the market who wanted the closest thing to live music. That number has shrunk to 1/10th of that or less, I'm afraid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rivernuggets Posted May 24, 2012 Share Posted May 24, 2012 This thread has been bugging me since I read it. So it's been bothering you for 9 years and 11 months? [] Glad you decided to let it out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schu Posted May 24, 2012 Share Posted May 24, 2012 ^lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Okemopoma Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 I knew when I joined this forum it would be an interesting experience. How could Klipsch Heads possibly be boring? Glad to be here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mustang guy Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 Heresy II produce the 50 HZ tone very audibly, but it did it with very little db loss from 100 HZ This would make sense since -10 db from 120hz would sound the same at 100hz and 50hz. They are both -10 db I didn't get much sleep last night. What did you mean by this? I am slightly confused... need a little kick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Islander Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 Zombie thread... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Okemopoma Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 I think he means that the low end response is 10 db low all the way down the scale from 120hz. I could be wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClaudeJ1 Posted May 26, 2012 Share Posted May 26, 2012 As a practical matter I would like to see power handling defined as the point of 3dB power compression. Yeah, the JBL2206 will handle 600W without bursting into flames instantly (it is only a question of time). But really, is it a 600W woofer when the last 3dB of power input only gives 1.5dB more sound output? http://www.jblpro.com/pages/pub/components/2206.pdf What about the similar 2241 18" woofer? In the JBL recommended box it will hit x-max with 5.2dB less than rated power. What good is a 600W thermal rating when the cone hits x-max with only 180W? Maybe two numbers are needed, a 3dB power compression number and an x-max in optimum box number. There are other considerations of course, but this might be a place to start. The numbers I work with are the ones embraced by Tom Danley, who I have dubbed the "King of Bass." Since sub woofers gobble up the majority of the power in any audio installation, whether home or stadium, the rules are the same. Only the orders of magnitude differ. If you believe that, then the answer is 10% of rated power without thermal compression in a voice coil. Conservative operation and horns are the answer to this physical limitation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rivernuggets Posted May 27, 2012 Share Posted May 27, 2012 Zombie thread... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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