Clipped and Shorn Posted July 13, 2002 Share Posted July 13, 2002 I agree with Kelly, just a bunch of cliches and mindless dogma. Where are all these words when it comes to anything requiring original thought . creativity, or actual knowledge. I suspect we have here a whole generation groomed on the dogma and cliches of talk radio crap and other equivalent pap. These threads allow them to pretend they have something original to say or pretend they are articulate, and practice their bad spelling. Boring zombie talk. Really boring. -C&S ------------------ Cornwalls currently upgrading to all tube components This message has been edited by Clipped and Shorn on 07-13-2002 at 02:08 PM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fini Posted July 13, 2002 Share Posted July 13, 2002 I've met lots of mixed-up kids who were osterized from society. fini Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clipped and Shorn Posted July 13, 2002 Share Posted July 13, 2002 If we have to depend on people (automatons) behaving themselves only because it is what their deity tells them they must do, we are in big trouble. In fact, that may be the trouble. And has always been the trouble. And more bigger trouble seems to be on the way as the war between the automatons and the humans ensues. -C&S ------------------ Cornwalls currently upgrading to all tube components Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anarchist Posted July 13, 2002 Share Posted July 13, 2002 C&S, I would be interested in knowing what your typical reading preferences are - you are a riot. The consumerism rants. Now the automatrons. Religion is certainly what restrains or causes many people to act as they do - for good or bad. ------------------ HT - Klipsch Synergy Premiere Audio - Heresy, KG4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted July 13, 2002 Share Posted July 13, 2002 All of the arguments I am now seeing -- have already been addressed earlier in the thread. It is now like beating a dead horse, and denegrating into a play-ground, "yes it is - no it's not" mentality. It is apparent that most who jumped into this thing a little late -- have not actually read the entire thread, for if you had -- you would certainly not be presenting arguments already discussed. For the record. In spite of my religious convictions, and strong personal belief in the deity of the Lord Jesus Christ -- I now realize that it does not matter that the framers were Christian, or Deists, or that they integrated their own beliefs into their speeches, and/or the original documents. If you follow the thread, you will see that I started on one side -- and ended up on the other. It is apparent that there is no constitutionally delegated authority that allows the federal government to make any law in favor of religion, a religion, against religion, or against a religion. Find my post earlier in the thread where the grammmatical construction of the 1st ammendent is treated. I also provided a good link. The framers understood that the best way to protect religion, and people of religious belief -- was to keep government out of it. Period. If we allow government to make any law, regarding any aspect of religion, there is then precedent -- and how do we then pull them back out? Regardless of faith, or non-faith -- people are free to believe what they want. I would encourage those of you in faith, to activate your faith in the area that matters most -- the quieting of your heart, and the hearts of those around you, that all may hear the whisper of God's voice -- and answer back.f> ------------------ Deanf>s> Klipsch RF7s - AE-25 DJH - AE-3 DJH - Sony 9000ES f>s> This message has been edited by deang on 07-13-2002 at 03:55 PM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted July 13, 2002 Share Posted July 13, 2002 If we have to depend on people (automatons) behaving themselves only because it is what their deity tells them they must do, we are in big trouble.f> Clipped, why do you say this? The ideas of common decency to one another, following laws designed for the common good, obedience to standards, and integrity in general -- are all acceptable and worthy things, regardless of whether they are matters of conscience, or put forth by government and civilized society, or even a Deity. The ideas of right and wrong, and the related system of rewards and punishment, are implemented in all societies and cultures -- from childhood on, and applied to almost every aspect of daily living. Where did all these things originate, and what is it inside you that tells you one thing is "bad" and another thing is "good"? What is inherently "bad" about having a Deity giving you standards? From my perspective, what is "bad" is when people, religious or not -- abandon standards set up for the common good, and distort the words of said Deity to justify and rationalize harm to others. Hey, I don't know about everyone else, but I'm just a guy trying to live out the standards set forth in the SOP binder. For some reason, it has all this "God" stuff in it.f>------------------ Deanf>s> Klipsch RF7s - AE-25 DJH - AE-3 DJH - Sony 9000ES f>s> This message has been edited by deang on 07-13-2002 at 03:47 PM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clipped and Shorn Posted July 13, 2002 Share Posted July 13, 2002 deang, it is refreshing to see that you underwent some kind of thoughtful process in the course of the thread. I believe it is possible for humans to discover a natural harmony within themselves and nature and that the universe is not inherently a malevalent place. Peace should come naturally, and it does, for the "meek" (meaning those who can reasonably control the ego, those who should, if all goes well. inherit the whole shebang). The problem with violence and out of control people is not to be solved by cramming religion down their throats, but more in a the long range recitifying of social ills and injustice which is at its ultimate root. Unfortunately unenglightenment is widespread and gaining ground, so simplistic answers abound, a momentary setback in the big picture. I believe it would be wiser to seek heaven on Earth rather than waste life on the planet for a promise of heaven in the pie in the sky, imho. Ignorance pays, it pays to be ignorant, as far as the corporate political powers of greed are concerned. They are apparently doing a good job, and the institutions of religion work along with them. The idea of saying "under God" in the pledge as a remedy for teenage pregnancy is ludicrous, but that is the level of thinking I have been seeing here amongst the Rush clones or should I say "Mega-Ditto Heads". -C&S ------------------ Cornwalls currently upgrading to all tube components This message has been edited by Clipped and Shorn on 07-13-2002 at 07:27 PM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anarchist Posted July 13, 2002 Share Posted July 13, 2002 quote: The idea of saying "under God" in the pledge as a remedy for teenage pregnancy is ludicrous... These simplistic and cliche rebuttals for not having God on currency or in the Pledge or anywhere else are what scare me. Where was such a position or belief stated? Who said belief in God eliminated free will? Who said uttering his name led to a cure for anything? It is simplistic to believe perceived 'social injustices' are responsible for all that ills this world. Much to our dismay, neither God nor recognition of social issues are what cause the vast majority of criminals to commit their crimes. These posts have reminded me how those that spout the need to recognize diversity are actually proponents of conformity. ------------------ HT - Klipsch Synergy Premiere Audio - Heresy, KG4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted July 13, 2002 Share Posted July 13, 2002 These posts have reminded me how those that spout the need to recognize diversity are actually proponents of conformityf> Crash, I would also say they call for the need to be tolerant -- yet tend towards intolerance.f> Clipped, There is plenty of enlightenment. What we are short on is balanced perspective and good manners. We probably differ on the idea of "peace within". There is peace that is in the context of emotion, and I think many have this due to disposition (genetics), stable life, environment, etc. Then there is "peace within" that is a state of being, or conditon, apart from circumstance -- and is not really associated with emotion -- but knowledge. I agree with you about cramming religion down people's throats having little effect if any. I also agree with you that much could be done to alleviate crime and violence by tackling the issues that cause poverty and hopelessness. However, crime and violence really have their roots in a bigger problem -- the prevalent attitude of people to be completely self-absorbed without regard to others. The universe may not be malevolent -- but it is certainly unforgiving in its ability to dish out pain and misery. The character of the universe is a paradox. It is boundless in its beauty and scope -- but it is also cold, sterile, and empty. The irony here is that human beings share in this contradictory character. So yes, we can be in harmony with ourselves and nature, but underneath it all we feel somewhat isolated and confused. Most people are mostly beautiful -- yet often feel empty in spite of this. Most lives are nothing more than a desire to fill that "emptiness". I think you are rather limiting in your application of "corporate-political" entities. You dont believe Liberals/Democrats support big business? What about Consumerism -- where we are all involved and contributing to the madness. Then this thing with "religious organizations" doing their part too. C'mon man, the only thing we Christians are guilty of is being duped by the Republicans into thinking they represent our interests. It's no worse than minorites being duped by Democrats into thinking they represent their interests. Ask inter-city blacks if they believe Democrats have elevated their standard of living. Isn't it the real truth that the more things change, the more they stay the same? What maintains the status-quo? You surprise me by leveling an accusation indicating mediocrity in the arguments -- but then yourself over-simplify the whole thing with one statement! You're a turkeyf>------------------ Deanf>s> Klipsch RF7s - AE-25 DJH - AE-3 DJH - Sony 9000ES f>s> This message has been edited by deang on 07-13-2002 at 11:09 PM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clipped and Shorn Posted July 14, 2002 Share Posted July 14, 2002 "These posts have reminded me how those that spout the need to recognize diversity are actually proponents of conformity" Are you quoting the standard cliche here, or is this something you really have surmised, if so explain. "The universe may not be malevolent -- but it is certainly unforgiving in its ability to dish out pain and misery. " God's plan? but keep praying. "The character of the universe is a paradox. It is boundless in its beauty and scope -- but it is also cold, sterile, and empty. The irony here is that human beings share in this contradictory character." in God's image? "So yes, we can be in harmony with ourselves and nature, but underneath it all we feel somewhat isolated and confused. Most people are mostly beautiful -- yet often feel empty in spite of this. Most lives are nothing more than a desire to fill that "emptiness"." Meditation works here. C'mon man, the only thing we Christians are guilty of is being duped by the Republicans into thinking they represent our interests. It's no worse than minorites being duped by Democrats into thinking they represent their interests. Yes, no argument here. There are, however, old traditions involved, so it will be harder to dupe the poor into thinking that the Republicans represent their interest, and it will be as difficult to convince the rich that the interests of the poor are in their interest. God, on the other hand, specifically mentions the needs of the poor in her big handbook. Racism has a way of distracting the aspect of "poor" from the term "minorities". Whatever happended to the biblical concerns for the poor? Seems like it got replaced. With what? Right, all that stuff we are talking about here. All that stuff on idiot talk radio. "Isn't it the real truth that the more things change, the more they stay the same? What maintains the status-quo?" It is important to change the things that really need changing. This is the struggle. This is the hope. The things that need changing are glaring. "You surprise me by leveling an accusation indicating mediocrity in the arguments -- but then yourself over-simplify the whole thing with one statement!" Yes, I always lie. Actually my neighborhood is being overrun by wild turkeys. I heard fish and game is letting them loose around here hoping they will flourish, for what reason I am not sure. Maybe it will soon be time to harvest them. -C&S ------------------ Cornwalls currently upgrading to all tube components This message has been edited by Clipped and Shorn on 07-14-2002 at 01:28 AM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted July 14, 2002 Share Posted July 14, 2002 Regarding the latter part of your post, it would seem we are in much agreement. Yes, there is plenty that can, and should be done. Yes, the poor should be of central concern as far as they relate to the church. To many churches and Christians they are, they just don't get press. As far as the former part of your response regarding my comments about the universe and people (God's plan?), and the misery that is so prevalent (keep praying) -- I can only say that the entire created order is in a degraded and chaotic state, and is a deviation from the original design. Discussion regarding the reasons and implications of this would cause poor Mobile to have a siezure -- and I want to spare him this.f>In here f> however, you will find what I think.f> My favorite book isf> here. f> ------------------ Deanf>s> Klipsch RF7s - AE-25 DJH - AE-3 DJH - Sony 9000ES f>s> This message has been edited by deang on 07-14-2002 at 02:03 AM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clipped and Shorn Posted July 14, 2002 Share Posted July 14, 2002 I've got it bookmarked and will check it out in more depth. Seriously. I will be curious to find out just how "what is" turns out not to be, by definition......... hold on....... Got to go, it's Dana Carvey, he's knocking at the door. He seems to be wearing a funky dress or something. And that's Jon Lovitz with him. I think they are "trick or treating". Jon's wearing a funny red suit with horns and a silly tail..... more later. Humor rules. -C&S ------------------ Cornwalls currently upgrading to all tube components This message has been edited by Clipped and Shorn on 07-14-2002 at 02:29 AM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soundthought Posted July 14, 2002 Share Posted July 14, 2002 In another thread I mentioned my avoiding non-audio related topics. It's not becuase I don't have strong opinions on other issues. It's more like i'm not here to defend my personal beliefs.(do plenty of that off-line) But i'm here to learn and discuss my passion, sound and music. I can't find many people around me who want to talk about room acoustics or quantum reality. These things relax me and take me away from everyday stresses. I find alot of people around here really enjoy that stuff as much as I do. Can't find this anywhere else i've seen. So, since i'm here to stay, When in Rome.... I'm agnostic. I was born latvian lutheran. I'm also not attached to a political branch. What i believe is this... We all are of the same flesh and blood. Are ancestors can be traced back many centuries to just a handful of people. We have no major differences other than two. 1. Religion. 2. Politics. Now, having studied Metaphysics and Politics for a while, I came to realize the inherent relationship between them. Think of this in terms off what would have come of the human race had somebody not laid down some common sense ground rules. Choas. 1st. Religion. I breifly want to state that i'm for religion in most cases. It is the closest thing you can get to an "owners manual for life and living". Many i've studied have been based on obvious common sense and good, healthy lifestles. How do you get a group of anyone to live one partcular way. A. You offer up a set of rules that are definate yet vague enough to apply to many personalities. B. You offer up incentive for an individual to want to abide. C. You enforce it with a power greater than that of mortal men. Thus giving one or a group of wise individuals the power to control the masses. It is vital to keep people from their own self-destruction. As time has passed on, so did humanitys' goegraphical location and diversity. With those things came different yet similiar religions. Things such as dilect affection translations and different living requirements. Directly resulting from migration due to increasing population. It is a perpetually ongoing process. It is understandable that we have had and always will have religious conflicts. For many people, religion is their life. Our lives our what we should feel strongest about. Remember: we are made up of all that we have learned, all that we know, and all we will intake until the time we expire. That is my basic take on general religion. We all should be free to say what we want, when we want, how we want, but not at the expense of others. IMHO. Beside the general def. what are words, really. Sounds propagated by the vocal cords, contoured by the lips and mouth, and resonated by the facial bones. Used to convey information on many levels in many forms. Nothing more nothing less, too me anyway. I do recognize that it is my responsiblity not to stop anyone from verbilizing themselves, but rather to recognize how my interactions are affection others. I feel there is a time and place to put others needs before my own. And a time and place to stand my ground. 2. Politics. Grew up in a "union house". My old man-rest his soul-was a union pipefitter for 35 years. Almost joined the trade but the old man said "Don't do it boy, it ain't what it used to be. Damn too many *** kissers and too much POLITICS. took me years to figure that out. My mom is a psycologist, teacher, AA mediator, drug counciler, and practices holostic medicine She has MA in arts and communications,MA in Pschotherapy and her Doctorate. Licenced and accredited. (professional student) LOL. I come from a politically diverse background. I follow whichever party will help the american people grow the best.IMO. All parties and religions have one basic common denominator---Mother Earth. My focus is on maintaining this planet and it's occupants. In case no one noticed, real estate is a commodity. They aren't making any more of it. We need to get our sh** together as a people and try to keep the land livable for the generations to come. There will never be less people in the world, and eventually there will not be enough space to accomodate everyone. So we have to keep what we have decent and clean for us and future humans. It makes good sense. But politics in a governmental form. Like religion offers rules and guidelines from which to be followed or modifed depending on evolutionary needs. How do you get people of one or many religions to live and thrive together in a community? Simple- same as above. A. You offer up a set of rules that are definate yet vague enough to apply many personalities. B. You offer up incentive for an individual to want to abide. C. You enforce it with a power greater than that of common man. I believe the connection to be the generalized format from which all governments and religions had stemmed from. That's my general take on politics. Don't love or hate it. It is a nessessity. And yeah. I voted a green party ticket. Go Nader! O.k. there it is. I've said my piece. Thank you all for allowing me my voice. Oh yea- I love my klipsch! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted July 14, 2002 Share Posted July 14, 2002 You will want to click on the "Objections Index". It will contain the subjects I think you will probably be the most interested in. The other links primarily deal with objections to things found in the Bible itself: Contradictions, discrepancies, textual problems, historical problems, archeological problems, etc. I added the second link to Lewis' book because this book had such a profound impact on me. I spent many hours trying to rattle loose the arguments. The book is a virtual mine field for the atheist. It's such a shame that people of faith do not take the time to educate themselves. They prefer instead to stay small minded, and then presume to have authority from God to dictate the truth to others, when they themselves don't have the slightest inkling of how to present the Christian world view in a way that is consistent with God's character. Bummer.f>------------------ Deanf>s> Klipsch RF7s - AE-25 DJH - AE-3 DJH - Sony 9000ES f>s> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anarchist Posted July 14, 2002 Share Posted July 14, 2002 Audioreality, Enjoyed your post and to make a simple but brief analogy since I have no interest in belaboring the point, I liken organized religion and governments to shephards. Deang, Enjoy your posts. The resource you pointed to though would appear to break from most existing religions which clearly indicate the Bible is inerrant. How do you reconcile your belief in God, which is based on the teachings of the Bible, with the fact you appear to disagree with Religious laws which hold the Bible to be inerrant. ------------------ HT - Klipsch Synergy Premiere Audio - Heresy, KG4 This message has been edited by crash827 on 07-14-2002 at 02:45 PM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anarchist Posted July 14, 2002 Share Posted July 14, 2002 C&S, Wasn't aware there was a 'standard cliche' regarding my thought. Perhaps you could enlighten me as to what it is and the argument supporting that cliche? Once you have done that and I respond, it should be easily determined if I am just offering up cliches and unable to think on my own. ------------------ HT - Klipsch Synergy Premiere Audio - Heresy, KG4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cluless Posted July 14, 2002 Share Posted July 14, 2002 ...a tale told by idiots...full of sound and fury...signifying nothing... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curmudgeon Posted July 14, 2002 Share Posted July 14, 2002 Before God we are all equally wise - and equally foolish. - Albert Einstein (1879 - 1955) Men become civilized, not in proportion to their willingness to believe, but in their readiness to doubt. - H. L. Mencken (1880 - 1956) In the first place, God made idiots. That was for practice. Then he made school boards. - Mark Twain (1835 - 1910) Good breeding consists in concealing how much we think of ourselves and how little we think of the other person. - Mark Twain (1835 - 1910) What can you say about a society that says that God is dead and Elvis is alive? - Irv Kupcinet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted July 14, 2002 Share Posted July 14, 2002 Crash, The original autographs may have been inerrant, but we do not have those. The Bible as we now have it, is not "perfect". However, it is sufficient. Whatever "error" exists (real or imagined), has no impact on the message, or in revealing the mind and character of God. In my opinion, Glenn Miller's site is by far the best at dealing with the myriad of objections raised regarding the Bible. James Still, who takes a much more critical approach to the Bible (and can almost be viewed as Glenn's nemesis), wrote a very good article regarding what we all refer to as "The Synoptic Problem" , and he does a good job of showing some of the problems from a textual/historical point of view. The first four or five paragraphs might be of particular interest to you.f>------------------ Deanf>s> Klipsch RF7s - AE-25 DJH - AE-3 DJH - Sony 9000ES f>s> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted July 14, 2002 Share Posted July 14, 2002 Now cluless, I know it's hard -- but be nice.f> ------------------ Deanf>s> Klipsch RF7s - AE-25 DJH - AE-3 DJH - Sony 9000ES f>s> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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