Grrrr, the f---s in CA have made it illegal for me to...

[kenratboy]

...say the Pledge of Allegence in school, which contains "under God."

Here is the story:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,56310,00.html

Or just look at a news site.

In Nevada, and a total of 9 states, we are in the 9th circuit court, and the ruling has affected all the wastern states.

Now, it is UNCONSTITUTIONAL for us to say "under God" in the pledge.

Here is the kicker. I have never been to church, will never go, and have NO interest in ANY religion. I just think it is STUPID and LUNY to do somthing like this. I say the pledge with pride and love for America, not because I am "brainwashed" or "pressured" into it. I love this country and think this is BS!!!

In Nevada, Idaho, Montana, Arizona, etc., we have NO interest in the HORRIBLE California politics.

It makes me mad, but I am glad I am not in California.

Also, both Dems and Republicans are steaming about this, I have a feeling it will be erased soon enough.

I can't wait to see what O'Reily will say about this

P.S. - If this is still around by the time school starts next year, I know what I will be saying after ...One nation...

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Yes, it sucks, but better to come. KLIPSCH soon! My computer is better than my stereo!

[Mikekid]

Pathetic isn't it!? Quite embarrassing really........

[m00n]

Ya, I can see both sides of the coin, my preference would be to leave it alone. I see no reason to change it.

Matter of fact, listening to Tom Leykis on this. Of course he is prasing the new ruling.

If feel the pledge is very important to us. Now more than ever, if you don't want to say "Under God" then don't say it. But just leave it alone.

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m00nsCinema to be

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[Huhuru]

Next you will not be able to spend the "In God We Trust" US Currency.

Huhuru

[BBB]

So my tax dollars are being spent on agrguing about this? That's just great. I have the IRS on my tail. Friends and family trapesing in some freakin desert directing bombs into caves not knowing when we will ever see them and we have boneheads in government sitting on $20,000 toilets that can't even find out who has been sending out the anthrax virus from some post office in New Jersey. Great ! Just Great!

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tHe wORLDs werst TYPesT>

[kenratboy]

And also, there are >300,000 people in the US that have overstayed their visas. I am NOT talking about illegal aliens, but people who got a visa to come here and they never went back.

It's all bad, but at least AMERICA will win in the end.

Nevada and California have NO common interests.

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Center/surrounds: Teac 3-way bookshelfs

Yes, it sucks, but better to come. KLIPSCH soon! My computer is better than my stereo!

[HornEd]

I kinda know how you feel, kenratboy, I had said the Pledge of Allegiance proudly every morning for years... and then suddenly, the government changed it shortly before graduating from high school. I was forced to say "under God" in violation of what I had been taught about the "American principle" of the separation of church and state.

As a Boy Scout, I was the first in my community to earn the rank of Eagle and the first to win the God & Country medal. And, for whatever its worth, my progeny speak to my heterosexuality... not that that should be a criteria to be an American partriot or a U. S. Citizen. I grew up in World War II believing America was the land of the free... the place where you didn't have to be anything but loyal to the concept of this Republic. And my independent voting record for over four decades tends to the conservative side of the aisle.

It bothered me growing up that Asians were not allowed to buy property like other American citizens or non-Asian foreign nationals... It bothered me that soldiers of different colors were assigned non-combatant jobs in the WWII military forces. It bothered me that women and men were treated differently in matters where freedom of the individual should have been more important than the accident of sex. But, I clung to the belief that my nation... although not a perfect nation... was moving toward becoming the more perfect union that our forefathers promised.

It bothered me that having grown up believing in the separation of church and state as a founding principle of this nation... that "under God"... the will of the majority was used to hammer the inalienable rights of even the most consciences minority. Now I believe that human beings HAVE to believe in something greater than themselves to maintain something that's popularly called mental health.

But when the most popular name for a supreme being was selected as "GOD" I felt offended as an American. Why pick that name over all the others used to describe a supreme being... and why should it be singular when there are so many who believe in multiple deities... like so many Native Americans.

When it came my time to step and go to war, it still stuck in my craw... even though it is said that there are no atheists in the foxholes. One's belief in whatever deity should be, under our Constitution, should be a matter of one's own conscience and not declared by a Federal edit... even if I agree with it... so long as some valid American citizen does not... or may not at some point in the future.

Now, I do believe that it was proper that our forefathers exhibited their belief in God as they drafted our country's early documents. But, I would have taken exception if they said that I had to believe in their God as they did... even if I do. And, of course, there are divine references in the Declaration of Independence... but, of course, that has nothing to do with the Constitution... since that came years later in 1789.

While it is clear that the early documents did not accept slaves as full fledged human beings... and that women had inferior rights to men... it also seems that that the first official suggestion of a clear division of church and state is in the Bill of Rights which became the first ten amendments to the Constitution. It should be noted that there is no reference to God, Divine Providence or Creator in the preamble to the Bill of Rights or in the Bill of Rights themselves.

The First Amendment reads: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

Obviously, for "under God" to stand the test of Constitutionality, it must be shown as a power that is expressly delegated to government under the Constitution. And, strictly speaking, I never found that authority in my studies at Hastings Law School... and neither could this court under our Constitution. Frankly, our national Achilles heel of Religious Freedom has been brought into the world view. At a time when we are hunting down terrorists who act in the name of religion... how can we honestly impose a Judeo-Christian God on a Pledge of Allegiance that new citizens must make... even if it compromises personal religious values. This is an issue that will not likely fade away this time around.

I understand that to mean that freedom of religion is an individual right... and that our government should stay out of religion. By most definitions, God has wisdom beyond any found in our poor powers... and most popular religious beliefs tend to put more accountability on the individual rather than the nation. I think that over the years, our nation has tended to reflect that as well.

Of course, "In God We Trust" was not printed on U. S. Currency until the Civil War era. A turning point in the war was the popularization of the song, "The Battle Hymn of the Republic" which tended to overrun the formal reason (the right to succeed from the Union)... and make it a "Holy War" over the rights of men in slave states. Enlistments soared... The first coin minted with the now familiar "In God We Trust" on the 1864 2¢ as a reflection of the religious fervor to preserve the Union.

And 90 years later, "under God" was added to the Pledge of Allegiance... and then, in a Joint Session of 84th Congress "In God We Trust" was adopted as the National Motto and first appeared on silver certificate currency in 1957. So, the mainstream addition of "God" on coins started about 150 years ago... and making "In God We Trust" the National Motto is less than fifty years old. So, this recent legal finding questions the wisdom of the 84th Congress and not the founding fathers.

Would those who now favor the words "In God We Trust" be just as comfortable with "In Allah We Trust"? ...or Buddha? ...or Wakan-Tanka (the Native American name used in the U.S. Senate prayer)? Would you be just as comfortable if someone else's word for God was used instead of the one you favor? Would you feel equal under the law of the United States if your word for a Supreme Being were excluded from the official National Motto in favor of the majority's word for a Supreme Being? Would you believe that the God of your religion would be pleased to know that the use of the word "God" is officially watered down to represent the Supreme Being as may be found in any faith?

A country laced with religious prejudice in its Pledge of Allegiance and National Motto automatically sows the seeds of dissention within its legitimate citizenry... our leaders made a mistake in 1954 when they first mucked up the pledge... and, perhaps, it is time for us to stand up for America and correct that mistake out of love for our Country and the mighty amalgamation of races, creeds, colors, sexes, national origins, or other trumped up divisions for which it stands.

Let us each put our own religion in our heart where it belongs... and restore the Pledge of Allegiance to its rightful place in this legally secular nation... and find a National Motto that fits more than the simple majority of less than fifty years ago. This is not a debate about religion or the right to be fervent about it. It's just a simple issue as to whether there should be an official recognition of one sacred name by your government... one sacred name over all others. And further, galvanize the precedent that a future majority of another religious persuasion could change the National Motto and Pledge of Allegiance to their particular sacred name. No, my friends, our nation should govern people by temporal law and stay out of the religious arena as an official slogan or pledge. While I appreciate your concern and devotion... I believe that God is quite content with the concept. We need that moral fervor to keep our politicians honest... rather than using it to have our politicians compromise the religious freedoms of others.

This is another one of those threads that my spark the emotional dissention that has forced other threads to be closed down... or that, finally, we as free Forum members have elected to let die for the greater good. Even a thread of a thousand hits and a hundred posts... has a very short life in the scheme of things. But, I think that PWK would appreciate the opportunity that people have to speak up and be counted on the subject of our country... for he, too, was a patriot and much of his intellect went into improving American military superiority in ballistics and such.

While this Forum is sponsored by a grass roots American company... and may be largely visited by U.S. citizens... it is also a window on America and on the Americans who post here. Let us show others as we show our selves that the bundle of divergent ways represented by the sheaf of arrows on our national symbol... that only by preserving the legitimate rights of our minorities can we hold our heads up high as a majority.

And, by all means, post if you feel the urge... but let's post peacefully... for we, as a people, are on trial even here. Since September 11th we, as a nation, have never been so mindful or needful of favorable world opinion. This is not a time to put down... or put up... anyone's religion over any other in any way. Save that for the time you meet with folks of your own religion... or when you are out speaking for your religion... rather than your nation.

At this moment, statistics indicate that the Muslim religion is growing faster than any other major world religion. And whatever happens, if this nation is to continue to be the bastion of freedom, a mighty world power and a self-correcting method of governance... picking one supreme beings conceptual name or another has no place in our Pledge of Allegiance or as the central figure in our National Motto.

As usual, that's just one American person's earnest hope and the considered opinion of someone who laid his life on the line for ALL Americans. -HornED

This message has been edited by HornEd on 06-27-2002 at 03:03 AM

[cluless]

BBB-- Hmmmm....(Yes that was a Hmmmmm)

No your tax dollars are being spent..

SO I CAN SURF/SHOP/SURF/SHOP/SURF/SHOP THE NET.... WHEEEEEEE....

I'ts a happy thing

Gawd, I really like that floaty smiley..

And Justin, or TPG, I give up...How do I stick the little guys (the ones not in the legend i mean) in the text of the message? I promise that I won't tell (cmcauli953@aol.com)

[tpg]

.

[cluless]

http://216.37.9.58/ubb/icons/icon98.gif

TPG

Ahh...the everdreaded tags...Hey, can I adopt you?

[cluless]

That didn't work...can I - "un-adopt you"?

[Deang]

Kenrat

Please change your topic title and remove the reference to a bundle of sticks. I'm afraid Forrestgump2 may ask that you be banned.

BTW -- I believe they should declare the Declaration of Independance unconstitutional, because it includes the word(s) "Creator", "Supreme Judge", and "Divine Providence".

While they are at it, they mind as well declare the Constitution unconstitutional.

Heck, "The Bill of Rights" has been turned into the "Bill of Privilages".

As far as "Separation of Church and State" goes, the Supreme Court's interpretation of that is completely bogus. As most know, this verbiage cannot be found anywhere in the Constitution.

Where it is found is in a letter from Thomas Jefferson to the then leader of the Danbury Baptist Association who had some legitimate concerns regarding the meaning of the 1st amendment. Thomas Jefferson wrote him back saying that the intent was to put up a wall between Church and State. The thrust of the letter was to reassure the minister that it was to protect the Church from Government, to stop it from drafting legislature that might allow Government to impose its will upon the people through the Church.

When looking at the first amendment, it is also clear to anyone not having been brainwashed with all this getting God out government nonsense -- that the intent was to prevent Government from making any law that favors one religion over another.

Keeping Government separated from the Church is one thing, keeping the faith(s) out of things Government is something else entirely. This idea that the Framers intent was to keep things of God out of Government is completely ludicrous. Everything from the Federalist Papers, to the Declaration of Independance, to the Bill of Rights (which is the list of things given to us by the Creator) -- clearly shows the Framers intent to include God in the process of independance and governing.

Should we also now include laws that say no one of any religious faith can run for office? I mean, God forbid anyone bring their religious bias' into the governmental process.

So, whether Muslim, Jew, Christian, Hindu, whatever -- all are protected from Government, and no one religion or denomination has to worry about Government making laws that favors one over the other.

More often than not, a good thing gets taken too far.

Government should recognize the Divine Will -- the Framers sure did.

f>s>

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Deanf>s>

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Metal drivers make metal music shinef>c>s>

This message has been edited by deang on 06-26-2002 at 09:05 PM

[tpg]

.

[BBB]

I think I get the idea

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tHe wORLDs werst TYPesT>

This message has been edited by BBB on 06-26-2002 at 09:51 PM

[tpg]

.

[tripod]

Extremely well put HornEd.

Very few will take the time to really consider the issue, they will just react to what they THINK they know about it.

I'm guessing that most of us younger than 50 didn't even realize that the line in question was an addition to the existing pledge. I'll be the first to admit that I had no idea until hearing it discussed on the news today. I never understood the contradiction throughout school as we learned about the separation of church and state and then referenced God every morning. Now it all makes sense to me, it was the result of our modern government. They have such a wonderful gift for doing what they do!

Oh well, there's really no need to say more as you have already discussed this topic quite eloquently.

[lynnm]

kenratboy

I doubt that you are actually a bigot and suspect that you use the word "******" without giving serious consideration to the societal harm that such language perpetuates.

Your use of hate language whether or not you intend it to be seen as hateful is not appropriate. Please edit the subject line or delete this thread.

History has amply demonstrated that the casual use of such language serves to reinforce and encourage bigotry. That language has no place in this forum

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It is meet to recall that the Great Green Heron rarely flies upside down in the moonlight - (Foo Ling ca.1900)

[Deang]

Tripod -- Maybe you could go back and read my edited post. After some reflection I just decided I couldn't let it go without saying something.

Maybe some thought should be given to why the line was added in the first place.

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Deanf>s>

AE-25 Super Amp DJH * S F Line 1 * S9000ES * HSU x-over * SVS CS+ * Klipsch RF7s f>s>

Metal drivers make metal music shinef>c>s>

This message has been edited by deang on 06-26-2002 at 09:10 PM

[fini]

lynnm- Thank you--my sentiments exactly.

fini

[Audio Flynn]

I know "God" was added to the pledge sometime in the mid 20th century.

Deleting God from government gives us cub scouts like Gary Condit.

I do not have time to look up who said it but paraphrasing it goes like this...

"without faith in God(and perhaps the ten commandements) the experiement of the consitutionally limited republic ultimitly fails"

I lean more twards Dean on this one.

Rick