botelerc Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 I know everyone on here has told me not to mix speaker brands, but I'm pretty much planning on it. Here's the reason. I currently rent and have no plans of hanging my rear surround. So I'm thinking of mirage omd-5's because they are small and can sit on a table to the side or rear of my couch. All Klipsch are too large for the look that I want, or my wife will allow. Also do any of know anything about PSB speakers, specifically the PSC Synchrony. How will any of the match up with my current system. RF83 Fronts, RF 64 center and will probably end up going with a SVS sub. Dont know which yet. Currently have a Sony SA2500, think. Too small. I have a Sony str-dh520 receiver. I would like to match the surround in cherry with my fronts and centers if possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garyrc Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 ... I currently rent and have no plans of hanging my rear surround. So I'm thinking of mirage omd-5's because they are small and can sit on a table to the side or rear of my couch. All Klipsch are too large for the look that I want, or my wife will allow. Also do any of know anything about PSB speakers, specifically the PSC Synchrony. How will any of the match up with my current system .... I don't recall seeing efficiency or sensitivity ratings for the omd-5s. If the combination of efficiency and power handling plus the power available from your surround power amplification stages are right to match the Sound Pressure Level of your front speakers with a pink noise signal, then they should be O.K. The frequency response will be different than your RF fronts, but considering that the room acoustics look different to speakers to the side &/or rear anyway, to say nothing of the difference in your hearing from that angle, that's O.K., especially given what comes out of movie surround tracks. Just make sure that nobody uses one of the omd-5s as an ashtray. I know nothing of the PSB/PSC Synchrony(?). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuBXeRo Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 Mirage is a very good brand of speakers and is owned by klipsch too. The OMD-5s i actually looked at for my computer but when it got time to purchase they were no longer for sale. They will make a great surround. PSB is also a very good brand but that one line in specific i know nothing about. People mix and match all of the time. It just comes down to if you can tolerate sound signature differences between brands/models. Do what you can in the meantime, nothing is ever perfect. You should be able to calibrate the gains correctly so everything increases at the same rate or near it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Youthman Posted August 22, 2013 Moderators Share Posted August 22, 2013 Just keep in mind the OMD-5's have a sensitivity rating of 90db. The RF-83's have a sensitivity rating of 100db. If I'm calculating correctly, to get the OMD-5's to the same volume as the RF-83's, you need to give them 3x the power since you need to double the power to get a 3db gain in volume. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psg Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 10 dB is 10x the power. Is the 100 dB sensitivity accurate? Just keep in mind the OMD-5's have a sensitivity rating of 90db. The RF-83's have a sensitivity rating of 100db. If I'm calculating correctly, to get the OMD-5's to the same volume as the RF-83's, you need to give them 3x the power since you need to double the power to get a 3db gain in volume. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Youthman Posted August 22, 2013 Moderators Share Posted August 22, 2013 10 dB is 10x the power. Your math is better than mine. [] 1 watt = 90db2 watt = 93db4 watt = 96db 8 watt = 99db16 watt = 102db So that would equal about 10x the power to go from 90db to 100db. Is the 100 dB sensitivity accurate? Yes, the RF-83's are rated at 100db - Link Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psg Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 Actually, it's the other way around... People learn the 3 dB for double power rule, but it's the 3 dB increase that is approximately equal to 2x the power whereas 10 dB is exactly 10X. 10 x log(powerRatio) = X dB 10 x log(10) = 10 dB 10 x log(3) = 3.0103 dB [] 10 dB is 10x the power. Your math is better than mine. 1 watt = 90db2 watt = 93db4 watt = 96db 8 watt = 99db16 watt = 102db So that would equal about 10x the power to go from 90db to 100db. Is the 100 dB sensitivity accurate? Yes, the RF-83's are rated at 100db - Link Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psg Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 Is the 100 dB sensitivity accurate? Yes, the RF-83's are rated at 100db - Link There's a lot of talk on AVS that it's more like 93 dB... I've never measured any Reference speaker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Youthman Posted August 22, 2013 Moderators Share Posted August 22, 2013 All I can go by is what is stated on the Klipsch website. I would think the manufacturer should know what specs their speakers are. If I had a 1 watt amp, I could test it myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psg Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 Any amplifier using a tone generator, a multimeter to measure voltage, and an SPL meter... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mongo171 Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 Any amplifier using a tone generator, a multimeter to measure voltage, and an SPL meter... And a tape measure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZombieWoof Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 All audio equipment MFGers "Fudge" on specs I M O Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garyrc Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 All audio equipment MFGers "Fudge" on specs I M O The important thing is do they "Fudge" equally? If every audio company "Fudged" by the same amount (i.e. added 3 dB to the real sensitivity) it would not matter. Or not. No charge for the double negative. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scrappydue Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 I don't remember what the rf-63's were but they were about sb off on their rating. I've tested it against the JTR noesis 228 which is spec'd exact as it is. When we ran a tone through both speakers his hit 98 exactly and my rf-63's where like 95.1 db or I remember right. So I'd say its safe to say the reference line is prolly 3 high all the way through. But that's only my opinion. 63's for sure though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derrickdj1 Posted August 23, 2013 Share Posted August 23, 2013 Youthman makes a valid point on the power differential of the two speakers. That is why I have always felt that smaller speakers may benefit more than large speakers from a power amp and increase overhead. The OP will have to go down the path he has chosen and see how things mesh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garyrc Posted August 23, 2013 Share Posted August 23, 2013 Youthman makes a valid point on the power differential of the two speakers. That is why I have always felt that smaller speakers may benefit more than large speakers from a power amp and increase overhead. The OP will have to go down the path he has chosen and see how things mesh. Maybe I don't get it, but I'd think that the size of the speaker wouldn't be the salient variable, but the efficiency would. There are some small speakers that are very efficient (JBLs and EVs, etc.) and some big ones that are not (B & Ws, etc). True, a big efficiency differential would have to be made up for by a big power amp differential (or the amps the same power, but the ones for the more efficient speakers more powerful than needed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Youthman Posted August 23, 2013 Moderators Share Posted August 23, 2013 Maybe I don't get it, but I'd think that the size of the speaker wouldn't be the salient variable, but the efficiency would. There are some small speakers that are very efficient (JBLs and EVs, etc.) and some big ones that are not (B & Ws, etc). I would think that would be the case as well. Sometimes smaller speakers do have a lower sensitivity but as you have stated, larger speakers don't always equal a higher sensitivity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derrickdj1 Posted August 23, 2013 Share Posted August 23, 2013 Size and speaker efficiency go hand in hand. In general in a speaker line, the larger speakers have a higher sensitivity compared to the smaller ones in the line. It is a fuction of the size of the box. I notice this use of power with my RF 7 and surrounds on the Yamaha M 70 amps. The smaller speaker used more power to keep up with the larger speaker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garyrc Posted August 24, 2013 Share Posted August 24, 2013 Size and speaker efficiency go hand in hand. In general in a speaker line, the larger speakers have a higher sensitivity compared to the smaller ones in the line. It is a fuction of the size of the box. I guess that's true in the bass, within a line and design type. The very effficient small speakers I had in mind didn't have much bass, so their efficiency was measured only within their effective bandwidth. They didn't need a very powerful amp, and, at the same time, they didn't have much bass, although, properly enclosed, they had adequate bass down to about 80 Hz. It could be that most small, efficient speakers are now off the market. Small speakers that tried for full bass (often through acoustic suspension) were, indeed, very inefficient. A Bozak Concert Grand, a very large speaker, needed a lot more power than a JBL 030 in a C40 enclosure (a medium size speaker), and much, much more than a JBL Bell-Aire, a very small speaker. The B&W 801F, a somewhat large speaker, @ 85dB/1w/1m needed more than 10 times the power needed by the Klipsch Heresy II, a smallish speaker (by Klipsch standards) @ 96 dB/1w/1M. I think the large Ohm speakers also needed about 8 to 10 times the power of the Heresy II. . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mustang guy Posted August 24, 2013 Share Posted August 24, 2013 People learn the 3 dB for double power rule, but it's the 3 dB increase that is approximately equal to 2x the power whereas 10 dB is exactly 10X. 10 x log(powerRatio) = X dB 10 x log(10) = 10 dB 10 x log(3) = 3.0103 dB Good information, I wasn't aware of that. Isn't it also true that 6db is the measured twice as loud, whereas 10db is the perceived twice as loud? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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