Selling (and buying??)

[maxg]

I am currently in the process of selling off my Accuphase E211 amp as I never use it.

(Part of me would also be glad to see the back of my SACD player, my 70 disk SACD collection and my 200 or so DVD video disk collection.

A small part of me is even considering dumping all my CD collection (say 600 disks) to a large hard disk and selling that off too (the CD's not the hard disk).)

Aside from the last 2 issues which is something I have not decided to do I am facing a question.

Namely : Would it be a good idea to off-load the Heresy's as well as the Accuphase and go for a pair of LaScalas. I reckon that the money would be roughly equivalent.

Of course this would beg other questions:

If I were to dump the Heresy's in favour of LaScalas would I still need the sub (Rel Strata 3)?

Will the Rel even be a good match for the LaScalas?

I am assuming that my amplification will match the LaScalas well enough as they drive the Heresy's so beautifully.

Obviously I will need to demo the LaScala's at home and that will answer not only the amplification issue but also the issue of room accoustics which is a concern.

I doubt a few days will be enough to answer the sub question (it took weeks to get it to match in with the Herersy's properly).

Aside from all of the above I face 3 other possibilities:

1. Keep the Heresy's and upgrade the Project TT for an Acoustic solid machine (www.acoustic-solid.de).

2. Keep the Heresy's and the Project and replace my push pull KT88's with a 300B or 2A3 based SET amp.

3. Leave my system as is (I love the sound anyway) and spent the money on something entirely different.

Decisions decisions...

Any thoughts?

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My System: http://aca.gr/pop_maxg.htm

[Mike Lindsey]

Max,

I say go for the La Scala's. If you add them to the rest of your equipment, they will just blow you away. As for the Sub, I believe Ray Garrison was using the exact same one with his La Scala's and he liked the combo a lot...

Mike

[maxg]

Mike,

What I love about this forum is that there is always someone who has tried out whatever it is you are thinking of and knows the a-z on the answers.

Thanks.

BTW - would anyone like to guess how much a pair of LaScala's cost new here in Greece. Oh, and dont tell me to buy new - they are rarer than hen's teeth here.

[Mallette]

A sub is a matter of taste. I certainly feel no need for one with K'horns. All the "real" bass is there, and I've no interest in more..."Pomp and Pipes causes me to fear for the drywall as it is sometimes. LaScala's don't go quite as low as the K'horns (1/3 octave, I think), but low enough for 98% of the material.

Of course, HT installations are different from music in that the studios really crank the bass on movies and "natural" has nothing to do with it, and many folks just like to constantly have their buts tickled by an extra dose.

Dave

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David A. Mallett

Average system component age: 30 years.

Performance: Timeless

[mpgwagon]

Yes!! Get the La Scala's A lot has been said here about La Scala's lack of bass. My reply is,insert Pauls yellow (Bull$#/+) button here!!. If the bass is there and they are setup right they will reproduce it, like it should be reproduced. Don't think so?? Then listen to some live Jazz then listen to Scala's. The bass from a pair of Scala's sounds like it should. No it doesn't sound like the Bass from the some Honda Civics I hear running around,but I don't want bass that sounds like a vibrating trunk lid! I see no need for a sub. I have a sub for Movies, Don't even use it there. IMHO

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http://gallery.consumerreview.com/webcrossing/images/MYSTUFF.jpg

[InventiveAudio.com]

That REL sub you have is kickass. I would keep it and give it a try before selling it off. Lascalas don't go all that deep and a sub reproduces sounds that a normal woofer can't. I personally could never not have a sub in my system. If you are using the system for movies too then the sub is a requirement.

[justin_tx_16]

quote:

---

Originally posted by trader:

That REL sub you have is kickass. I would keep it and give it a try before selling it off.

---

Ditto. I almost got that very same sub, but am going to go for SVS instead. But I was incredibly impressed with what cameout of the REL Strata III I listened to.

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-justin

SoundWise Support

A technical help site created by me and my fellow Klipschers

I am an amateur, if it is professional;

ProMedia help you want email Amy or call her @ 1-888-554-5665 or for an RA# 800-554-7724 ext 5

Klipsch Home Audio help you want, email support@klipsch.com or call @ 1-800-KLIPSCH

RA# Fax Number=317-860-9140 / Parts Department Fax Number=317-860-9150s>

[jazman]

Max,

Beware that upgrading to LaSala's will more than likely set off a chain of upgrade events. That is not necessarily a bad thing, but very likely. As for the sub, much depends on your sonic taste and source materials. I listen to mostly Jazz, so I'm with mpgwagon on this one. I have no desire to add a sub to the Belles in my 2 channel system. I place great value on the ability of the Belle Klipsch to reproduce the sound of an upright bass or a kick of the bass drum as it comes from the stage of a live performance. Your taste may vary, as well as many others here. You like classical, so the sound of timpani, or kettledrums, are important considerations that only a live audition can answer. It's a shame Greece makes it an expensive proposition to bring into the country, a very personal purchase such as a pair of stereo speakers.

See, you're not cured.

Klipsch out.

[maxg]

Well these are very nice things to hear about my sub. To be honest I bought it not having even heard of the SVS option.

All I wanted was a sealed unit sub (on the basis it would match the sealed Heresy better) and this was the one I found.

I dont know about anyone else but when I went to listen to the sub in the shop I found it about as useful as a pair of glasses for a fish.

Their setup was a surround sound setup using the LFE connection and playing a DVD (Terminator 2 if I recall).

Mine is a speaker level connection for music only.

I couldnt do a home demo so I kinda bought it on spec and it seemed to fit in nicely although it needed a hell of a lot of playing around to get the sound right.

Its good to hear it compares well with other subs - I have only ever had rubbishy ones before for comparison and it certainly blows them out of the water (one KSW10 - sorry Klipsch - not your best effort and one Aiwa sub - just dont ask).

Actually I still have the AIWA sub in the bedroom connected to the Aiwa all-in-one but pretending to be separates that used to be my main system.

Havent I come a long way..

Now about those LaScalas.

[mobile homeless]

If you are GOING to have a sub for a music system with ultrafast speakers, you have to get a sealed sub; otherwise, it is just not quick enough for the system.

That being said, I really dislike 99% of sub systems, even with VERY good subs. While you can get used to the presentation, I find it almost always adds an ever so slight thickening to the sound that bothers me. The system is almost invariably slowed down to a certain extent, although some are far better than others (obviously, implementation plays a great roll as well). Of course, after living with it on, most get used to the presentation and when it is off, it sounds like the bottom drops out. Yet to me, the sound sans sub is the closer to the real thing, even if you bass is not subterranean. This is especially true with SET amplifiers which when mated with horns, tend to be far too fast and alive for the addition of most subs. The speed of horns or single driver speakers is quite a factor to deal with. Of course, all this is in reference to 2 channel MUSIC driven systems.

If you are going with a sub, the sealed option, as said above, really is the only way to float. With my Cornwalls, I feel absolutely NO NEED for a sub when using any of my tube amps, especially the 2A3 Moondogs. The bass is very agile, alive, and holds good impact, but I do have a small room. I much prefer fast and agile bass to a more deep yet slightly slower presentation.

Sub use in HT is fun... But I really find them objectionable with a well done 2 channel system. As Dave mentioned above, while the sub can play a big role in thy HT system, with most music, it is more unnatural and only adds to the "experience" and not the actual music. REL is a good sub however. And the good ones make the bad ones look like a urine soaked pillow.

kh

ps-Others here disagree, but I would really think twice about selling your CD/SACD collection and opting for a HD approach. Unless done at the absolute highest level, I think you will hear a difference with a good system. And you are distancing yourself from the act of playing music even more.... What approach were you opting for?

Phono Linn Sondek LP-12 Valhalla / Linn Basic Plus / Sumiko Blue Point

CD Player Rega Planet

Preamp Cary Audio SLP-70 w/Phono Modified

Amplifier Welborne Labs 2A3 Moondog Monoblocks

Cable DIYCable Superlative / Twisted Cross Connect

Speaker 1977 Klipsch Cornwall I w/Alnico & Type B Crossover

Links system one online / alternate components / Asylum Listing f>s>

This message has been edited by mobile homeless on 07-05-2002 at 07:55 AM

[maxg]

Kelly,

I am currently in the class of having gotten used to my sub and the ambience it brings to the music but that is with the Heresy's.

I plan to audition the LaScalas without the sub and then go from there. If I like the sound I will sell the Rel and re-coup some of my investment - otherwise I will just have to match it in as I did with the Heresys.

Fully agree with your speed comments - another reason I bought the Rel is that it only has a 10 inch woofer and I reasoned that that would be able to keep up with the 12 inch woofers on the Heresy's. With the horned bass of the LaScalas I have no idea what will happen. I imagine the horn will be faster than the Heresy's woofer and you may be right that the Rel will muddy things up - the testing will tell.

I have to add though, that proper setting up of a sub is essential in order to judge whether or not you like it. It took me a long long time to do this with many different locations tried, crossover positions set and volume level adjustements, not to mention assessing the different means of connection available.

To illustrate the complexity I have 4 different locations in my room where the sub could go, there are effectively 24 cross over points and effectively a similar number of volume levels with, for me 2 different ways of connecting (high level RCA from the Pre or speaker level). That is 4 * 24 * 24 * 2 permutations - and one sounds best.

Obviously you can cut the number of permutations down dramatically with some common sence (avoiding maxing out the volume, and the extremes of the cross-over - from 21hz to 100Hz) but even so I reckon I was left with 100 permutations to try. All in all it took about 3 weeks to get close and another 3 months to get it perfect for my ears.

AS for the whole CD/SACD onto hard disk issue the fact is that I do not listen to them at all anyway. I am sure the quality will deteriorate in the transfer but I figure it will only be used for background music when we have company.

If I want quality (which I do when I listen nightly on my own) I spin vinyl. No CD or SACD I have matches that quality.

In that light I am not too concerned about losing quality of the digital recordings - the convenience will more than make up for it.

Thanks for the input though..

[Deang]

Low bass has slower decay properties, so proper calibration is paramount to good performace.

Also, most subs use a 6db/octave high pass filter locked in at 80 or 90 Hz because of the THX standard. This high pass setting is usually used in conjuntion with a 24db/octave low pass. This necessitates using a higher setting on the low pass to get optimum results. My opinion is that this is the least desirable combination.

Having owned several different types of sub utilizing this configuration, I always found that no matter what I did, the bass always seem somewhat disconnected from the rest of the spectrum.

I have found that a 24db/octave crossover for both the high pass and the low pass, allow the use of the lowest available setting on the low pass (usually 40 - 50 Hz). This configuration, properly calibrated, gives one the ability to create seemless integration between the sub and mains.

I don't understand what it is about a sealed design that is 'fast'. The linear excursion of the driver on a sealed design for any given low frequency is two to four times of that in a reflex design, depending on the size of the driver. I also don't see how a frequency being reproduced by a moving driver can be 'faster' than a frequency being reproduced by the air moving out of a port.

This aside, I know the REL subs offer a very high degree of flexibility, but I can't help but think it would take more than one of these to keep up with a set of LaScalas. At least, as far as realistic sound levels go.

f>s>

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Deanf>s>

Bi-amplified Klipsch RF7s using

a pair of AE-25 PP triode amps.

A SF-Line 1 loaded with 6922's

and a 9000ES finish the front.

The low bass is supplied by SVS

and Samson. The crossover is HSU.f>s>

[Mallette]

You'd have to explain to me why the quality of your digital music would change in any way not related to the DAC employed. When I make a copy of a document or a jpeg, the "quality" does not change. I've heard absolutely no technical reason why the act of conversion of a CD to wav without transcoding should affect its quality in any way whatsoever.

Dave

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David A. Mallett

Average system component age: 30 years.

Performance: Timeless

[mobile homeless]

Explain to me your DAC used and the process of getting the info from the HD to the DAC.

I started a five paragraph post to Danocaster on the subject of listening goals and point of reference and experience within and because of these same goals but ran out of steam.

Much of the conversations within this board pertaining to topics such as turntables, digital, equipment, and even the very essence of quality of playback have a lot to do with this very aspect.

It's all quite relative. Here, we have the "bits is bits" approach. Going from your HD to the DAC involves quite a bit different standards and available options. It is not hard to see these. Are you using a computer? An external device? What is your method of getting the data from the HD out to the amp? If you dont see the compromises here unless going with some seriously limited options then this post will need to be quite long.

kh

[Mallette]

OOOOooo. Not necessary to spend your holiday writing one of your usual well-reasoned and scholarly dissertaions, MH.

I was questioning ONLY the state of the data...that the audio data is identical on the HD to that on the CD when transferred as files. I.E., if you had an identical playback chain for this data from a CD player and an HDD, the sonic result would be identical.

Dave

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David A. Mallett

Average system component age: 30 years.

Performance: Timeless

[mobile homeless]

Yeah, that post of mine did sound rather uppity so I apologize. I guess I was just a bit taken with the fact that you couldnt see how the two sources might yield different results, if looking at the whole playback chain.

kh