anyone heard martin logan electrostatic speakers ?

[Audible Nectar]

I've heard the ML's fairly often in the local shop (where I bought my Krell HTS). They sound very good, but they sure need the Krell 400w x 5 power amp!! Stats use watts like SUV's use gas!

I also found that the stats benefit from a subwoofer. If I have one complaint, they seem a bit bass thin with 2 channel - no "slam" without a sub. Dynamically, they aren't bad given their sensitivity (again massive power reserves are needed), but when you are used to Klipsch, very few speakers will compete in the category of dynamics.

They do image well - very well. I don't recommend them for those with heavy rock and roll tastes - but they can be a worthwhile pursuit for those wanting a high end system. The cost of amplification to drive them might have one looking at other options though - doing stats right is a very expensive proposition.

[lne937s]

I have never owned any, but the recent stats seem to sound much better than the ones I heard a decade ago.

I also have to say that I have become a true believer in ribbon drivers having listened to them in a broad range of applications up to $80K. They are really fast and detailed. Some people are even experimenting with them in horn loaded designs.

I also have to say that I like my maggies. The actually do need to be broken in to get the membrane to stretch, and should be lived with for a while to catch all the details these speakers bring. However, room placement makes a tremendous difference- just as much as placing a woofer in a different cabinet- a fraction of an inch is noticable. In my small room, I have never felt the need to turn up the volume past half way. I can now hear details I never heard before, even with my RF3's, I understand all the voices being mumbled in the background of Dark Side of the Moon, and dubbed-in voices in movies are now distractingly obvious. However, if you have a huge room, want to play your music loud, want to use small wattage tube amps, have low quality source material, want to have house parties, have kids or animals, have to coordinate positioning with WAF, etc.- these speakers are not for you.

Larry

[kenratboy]

Krell has been working with major companies to make a proper electrostatic speaker amp, here is what they came up with:

They are a mono-block design and will sell for about $120,000 each.

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Receiver: Sony STR-DE675

CD player: Sony CDP-CX300

Turntable: Technics SL-J3 with Audio-Technica TR485U

Speakers: JBL HLS-610

Subwoofer: JBL 4648A-8

Sub amp: Parts Express 180 watt

Center/surrounds: Teac 3-way bookshelfs

Yes, it sucks, but better to come. KLIPSCH soon! My computer is better than my stereo!

[tangero]

Ok, prepare myself to get crucified. I heard a pair of ML at about 4K with a 200 (or was it 300?) watt per channel McIntosh. The saleskid put in a Muddy Waters cd from the 40s. Man, I thought the he had risen from the 5th Ward and come in to speak to me. I was stunned. I bought Belles and a pair of 30 watt monoblocks instead. My whole system cost less than that pair of ML. I also noticed that I can turn up the KHORNS REALLY LOUD and wife doesn't start looking for her castration shears (she's a country gal). Oh well, anybody reading this post already know that KHORNS rule. My buddy has a pair of Electostats that sound great and yea he has a big SS amp and listens to Metalica at 911 volumns...

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HH Scott vintage tube system with 122 preamp,310 E tuner, pair 240 monoblocks, JVC turntable, Klipsch Heresy I speakers, Harman Kardon dual CD

[jdm56]

Tangero<<I also noticed that I can turn up the KHORNS REALLY LOUD and wife doesn't start looking for her castration shears (she's a country gal).>>

What in the heck were they cuttin'? We always used razor blades on calves and pigs.

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JDM

[John Warren]

Mark-

HA!! I was wondering when someone was going to pick up on "salami" thing!! That description made the scene in the early 70s. I think it came from an Audio magazine *Lirpa* Loudspeaker review.

Good show!!!....you old bastard!

This message has been edited by John Warren on 08-01-2002 at 06:24 PM

[lynnm]

The entire Lirpa line was featured in the February 1970 issue of the European edition of Audio which of course differed from the North American edition by the inclusion of capsule reviews of quality audio equipment produced in Europe in place of reviews of North American and Japanese equipment not then available in Europe:

Actually Audio was lukewarm or even somewhat negative about most of that Swedish maker's line although they like almost everyone else thought the cabinetry was exquisite. The exception however was the Loof - Lirpa's flagship and the sole electrostatic in the line:

<A long and highly technical description is omitted from the quote due to space and copyright issues.>

" The oddly named Loof is described by Lars Swensen,Lirpa's Chief of Engineering, as being the finest speaker ever produced at any price. This immodest description was very nearly validated in our listening and testing . Sonically they are Very clean and crisp and unlike their linemates,(and most other electrostatic models),capable of absolutely thunderous bass and their awesome transient response is a joy to behold. We have to temper our enthusiasm however with two minor caveats:

Our reservations are partly technical and partly fiscal. On the technical side we noticed that the built in pair of 2200 watt RMS amplifiers sounded ever so slightly "grainy" when driven to extreme levels while having a tendency to sound rather thin at what most of us would consider reasonable conversational levels. In other words these mammoths have a tendency to demand to be played at loud levels but if played too loudly can be harsh. That said they are breathtaking when played at "concert hall" listening levels. Mahler's Das Lied Von Der Erde at 110 db. must be experienced as it cannot be adequately described.

On the fiscal side it is difficult to believe that any but the most committed and wealthy audiophile would be willing,(or able to invest the $114,987.00 + shipping for the pair). That said,If your budget can accomodate such an investment these speakers are eminently worthy of your consideration."

I have never heard these speakers but the photos that I saw in the magazine were marvelous. How many were produced or imported into North America. Does anyone have any more information on the Lirpa??

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It is meet to recall that the Great Green Heron rarely flies upside down in the moonlight - (Foo Ling ca.1900)

[John Warren]

lynn-

no, no, no.........!!!!!!!!!!

*Lipra* reviews in Audio magazine were parodies on high fidelity components. The "reviews" came out in the April edition (Lipra = April spelled backwards).

[lynnm]

Dang!!

Busted already!!

I shoulda known someone would smell a rat.

This message has been edited by lynnm on 08-02-2002 at 07:44 PM

[Jolly Roger]

Well, I own a pair of M&L Odysseys for a two channel setup that I'm happy with. I do agree with the fact that they do need plenty of clean power to do their magic.

That said, I believe that there is no perfect speaker. Each one has its own advantages and disadvantages. The main disadvantage with M&L's is not only the cost of the speakers but the cost of the upstream components you have to put into them. Throw that out of the window and good M&Ls are a force to reacon with. I get way more oohs and ahhs about just the looks of the Odysseys than any speaker I've owned.

But it really boils down to the type music you listen to and what the room they are going into is like. Stringed instruments, vocals, acustic guitar based music are the strong points of my M&Ls. I always use to say that you can't beat the sound of a horn through a horn loaded speaker. This was before I got my electrostats, now I'm not so sure. The membrane of the electrostat vibrates very fast, and when you listen to music or sounds that allow you to really excite this membrane you will be very impressed. Heavy metal and really hard rock may be suited for other speakers all though the M&L's do, do a fine job with those as well.

My Klipsch are my work horses and I'm very fortunate to have the option to listen to either system. Both have a way of bringing a smile to my face but for different reasons. J.R.

[Colin]

I heard the Statements recently:

Here I was going from salon to salon at a special Sound Advice audio event; Gayle Martin Sanders introducing his six $70,000 top-of-the-line towers of power called the Martin-Logan Statements.

I have to compliment this retail chain, as it spreads from north to south, here was exactly what some reviewers have lamented about recently: the chance for the plebian to enjoy the audio fruits of Olympus. An opportunity to hear reproduced music as good as it gets.

I never miss one of these events and always listen politely to what the host has to say. As if there might actually be the chance, within this decade, of my purchasing the ultra high end speakers, or maybe even the whole system. In any event, I always learn something. I always come away both discouraged by how far my modest system has to go and yet encouraged by how much I have accomplished within the confines of my parsimonious audio budget.

Deep pounding rumbles on timpani accompanied sharp clacking on blocks with a sonorous tenor for the first song. The vocals were as good and as realistic as the $100,000 Nearfield Pipedreams line driver arrays. The tenor was crisp and clean, unfettered and unrestrained.

The sound of a closely miked jazz rendition of Sting's "Walking on the Moon" was next. This bopping song was incredibly real. Drums rocked and snapped better than anything I have ever heard. Cymbals crashed. The space between the notes made music. The bass line is a taut as the high-wire at the top of the circus tent. When the artist carefully tiptoes out on the line, the vibration is felt through out the tent. Each pluck, each step, on the bass line rang and swayed with the delicacy and authority of the action. There were no missteps by the system.

Last in the demonstration was some inaudibly low church organ notes. They washed through the room like waves pounding a beach. You are but a pebble in their way as they overlap and pass you by.

Pretty impressive stuff for the millionaires down here in Boca Raton. Something, the host suggested, to build a custom theater room around. Indeed.

One prospective customer asked me what I thought as the salesman spun the dial between Klipsch RF7s, B&Ws and Martin-Logan electrostatics. With out any balancing, the Klipsch were clearly louder. On the reggae track that was playing, I thought they sounded crisp, bright, clear, solid and more music like. I diplomatically told the customer it was only what he liked that mattered. Heaven forbid that I should wear out my welcome at such sumptuous and entertaining events, by inserting my opinion as truth in the business of selling High End Audio. So instead, I asked what he had for an amplifier and when he replied "McIntosh," I extolled the virtues of a McIntosh and Klipsch combination, and left the room.

The RF7s were $1095 each and the B&Ws were $3,750, he said. I thought the price relationship should be reversed.

One of the secrets of high fidelity is that coupling modest tube amplifiers to super efficient (95 dB/w/m or more) speakers is a classic amp & speaker combination. They form a musical union hard to describe, like comparing soft and flaky piecrust, rather than the moist and crumbly kind. This texture is clearly a matter of personal taste. Yet, horns and tubes is one successful combination that has sold a lot of pies over the decades. It is a joint effort that makes music. An effort that just sounds wonderful.

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Colin's Music System Cornwall 1s & Klipsch subs; lights out & tubes glowing!

[KilleR]

I have never listened to Martin Logan electrostatic speakers, but I once listened to other very expensive electrostatic loudspeakers and, later, electrostatic headphones. To me, the high frequencies, both with the speakers and headphones, weren't nice at all. Too harsh, not dynamic enough. It looked like if it was compressed. It looked like if someone had been playing with an EQ and would have set the 10kHz at +10 dB, not causing distortion, but compressing the high freq. a bit. It wasn't s "transparent" sound as some say.

However, the mid-range frequencies were played with an impressive amout of detail.

I'd like to know if all electrostatic speakers exagerate the high frequencies or not.

This message has been edited by KilleR on 08-06-2002 at 05:04 PM

[Quenten]

Nicely put Colin

I've listened to the ML's & while very nice, they are'nt what I'm looking for. Probably R/T hearing loss over the years--the upper end clarity of Klipsch just can't be matched.

I feel that midrange action could use some tweeking--maybe the next generation RF-10's !

[tdacquisto]

Hi,

Many of the responses to your inquiry used "M&L", SL3000 and some other terms that make me believe the persons posting the responses are not what they claim to be or are simply talking out of their asses.

I've been the proud owner of Martin Logan electrostatics since 1986. I am an ex-electrician and VERY familiar with electrostatic speaker principles as well as electrical theory. Here's what I know...

First off let's clarify some things:

Magnepans are NOT electrostatic speakers. They work on similar principles but use magnets to create a field that will move the planar diaphram when the source signal hits it. Electrostatic speakers (ESLs) use an external power supply to create this field, therefore, they need to be plugged into an electrical outlet to charge the panels.

Apogee speakers are NOT electrostatic speakers. They are speakers that use a metallic membrane (ribbon) to move air. Apogee is no longer in business.

Carver Amazing Loudspeakers are NOT electrostatic speakers. They use dynamic drivers coupled with ribbons. They too are no longer being made.

Acoustat is a company who made very nice electrostatic speakers. They are no longer in business either and finding parts for their speakers is becoming very difficult.

Electrostatic loudspeakers (ESLs) require a HIGH CURRENT amplifier because the ESL transducer has very little impedance (ohms) and the driver of the electrostatic speaker is usually quite large. An amp has to be powerful enough to supply the speaker with continuous current that will move the diaphram as the signal hits the charged field.

A good quality 100 watt high current amp will make Electrostatic speakers sound incredible.

ESLs have been around since the 50's. Do a web search on "Quad ESL" and you'll find out that the Quad ESL speaker is equivalent with the Klipschorn when it comes to legend, history and sound. The companies who are making Electrostatic loudspeakers today are doing it better than ever. Their designs are becoming more and more efficient. Martin Logan is probably the fore-runner in ESLs and has really done alot in the last 15 years to refine this technology.

ESLs have a hard time reproducing deep bass, therefore all but one of Martin Logans products (The CLS) utilizes an integrated subwoofer to recreate bass. The integration of the subwoofer with an ESL is another thing that Martin Logan has nearly perfected.

Instead of the sound coming from a cone or horn, it comes off the entire surface of the panel. Guess what that means? HUGE SOUNDSTAGE. ESLs also radiate sound from both the front and back, so room placement of the speakers is very important. When properly set up, the soundstage and imaging of ESLs is quite incredible. Music seems to come from everywhere and few people who have been at my house can tell where the music is coming from.

Not only are Martin Logan products great, but their customer support is second to none. If any of you reading this are thinking about electrostatics, check out the products at your nearest ML dealer. Give them a listen and you will be amazed!!

out.

[hwatkins]

Great detailed response - I had almost forgotten this thread until you renewed it.

I can agree with a lot of your opinion (and if you look back near the first of the thread said some similar things). My apologies for not explicitly describing the difference between the Maggie Planars and the ML electrostats and for calling the Maggies stats. However, my point would have been better made if I noted the similarity in their sound.

And lastly, talking out my *** is a particularly difficult thing to do and I am darned proud of it...

[dougdrake]

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On 2/7/2003 6:23:11 PM hwatkins wrote:

And lastly, talking out my *** is a particularly difficult thing to do and I am darned proud of it...

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I think Jim Carey first perfected this technique, but I don't remember what movie it was in. However, I do remember the classic line "Anyone got a breath mint?"

DD

[lynnm]

tdacquisto

As an accomplished and multilingual ***-talker I rejoice that you have deigned to join this forum. You M'Lord have made a magnificent entrance. If one is to be talked down to it is instructive to have it done by one who is so clearly superior .

Thank God you have come to us! I admit my error Sweet Prince - I admit that for too many years I had harboured the delusion that high end elite audiophiles were snobs and you post has shown me the error of my ways. What had seemed sneering arrogance was merely the inevitable result of attempting civility with the riff-raff. I understand your pain. I recently overheard a conversation in an Audio Salon , (After getting all pished up after lissshining to some Klipsshorns at Barney's Bar and Grill and Dance Hall) and staggered in looking for a terlet. I am quoting as near as the Al K. Holic haze will permit - I am stober now for the mummmennnnt:

"What can one do when attempting to speak with the utterly gormless ! One does get exasperated after all ! Some Mothers Do Have Them - Far too Many Actually (snickers all around). Amazingly a fair number of them think that the mere fact that they avoid certain heavily advertised brands signify their audiophilia. One even raved about some Acoustic Research speaker he had heard when he was in college - One of those working class diploma mills one assumes - ( Amazing I know Flaunty old Pip But True Nonetheless - His Pater must have worked the lines at Chrysler or some sort of trade job! Do you believe it Algernon - Those people actually have the vote ?? ) God Help us All. - ?? Actually old boy I was talking with God the other day and he mentioned that he preferred to be referred to in Upper Case and that the rest of us to be referred to in lower case. Well yes dear boy - He Is A Snob ! But the register does give Him precedence after all.

They endure the blatting of Klipsch - Altec Lansing - AvanteGarde - Edgarhorn etc and actually believe that this makes them superior those who "dine" at McWendy King. One of those Bufoons said He was an "audy oh feel"and loved his Klipsch KLF 30 speakers. The clod even admitted to liking Big Mac's ! I must admit that I am unfamiliar with the 2550 Special - Hold the Mayo perhaps ? Oh My Stars Chauncey - He looked as if he didn't see the joke!! " ( Helpless guffaws all around! ).

My previous naivete in attempting to relate to ye audiophile elite as a peer has clearly been breathtaking impudence ! Your forebearance regarding my previous droll effrontry is greatly appreciated. I beg you pardon and assure you that in any future communication with you I will never again arrive Foot in Mouth but Hat in Hand. I tug me forelock and back away from your presence Sire.

Horn Lovers Rejoice the Messiah has Arrived !

[hwatkins]

Lynnm

Very, very funny stuff. Read it twice just to laugh at different spots.

I slept poorly last night (cold, congestion, maybe the flu,etc.) and your post helped me get over the 'woe is me' feeling this morning. My family thanks you (including the dog who can get the brunt of my mood).

Keep up the good work Dr. Lynn

[Flason]

I tried to clear my throat but crapped my pants! As a current owner of ML Aerius I and a (crap) load of Klipsch, I must admit the ML's are very nice speakers. What they do, they do well. I had them running on a Parasound 220 watt amp and a Carver TFM35, and they were excellent to listen to. Same equipment with ANY of my Klipsch would make the music come alive. It was a day and night comparison. The Klipsch brought life to the music. I really don't know how to better explain it, it was like the performers were in your living room. While I know I had the lower end ML's, they were essentially the same price as the KLF30's I replaced them with. If anyone is interested, I am selling both the ML's and the KLF's. Just no more room in the house with the LaScalas, Cornwalls, Herseys and KG4's as well as 2 pair of Polk.

[tdacquisto]

I didn't mean to come off sounding like a ****. Just wanted to make my point that not everyone on here knows wtf they're talking about.

Now bow to my greatness.