What are your Audyssey Settings and Preferences?

[Zen Traveler]

tkdamerica,

You'd expect those RB-5 to be set at 60Hz, wouldn't you?

I don't know. They are horizontal and pointed at my LP, but aren't as near a boundary as if they were setup as typical bookshelf speakers. It's going to be tricky to angle them down more but as soon as I do will report back.

[Zen Traveler]

My settings are very similar to yours, using Audyssey XT32. Give or take a few feet on the surrounds, most likely because your room is larger than mine and/or I sit closer to my surround speakers. I tend to listen to a lot of music on All Channel Stereo during parties. I run a 7.2 and even while doing so (all channel stereo) at very high volumes, my woofers are barely moving. I fear the capabilities

Fwiw, my HT above is in a less than 2,000 cu ft room and only has a single loveseat so there are no parties with this system. I also listen to 2 channel with my Rf-7s and subs but never in all channel stereo...Just curious, how loud do you listen to material with your system either on the MV and/or SPL meter?

[Sancho Panza]

Used to listen to MULTI Channel Stereo, when it was 5 Heresy II & kg2 pair.

Switched to Stereo 2.2 for Music after I got the La Scalas.

[derrickdj1]

For more critical listening, 2 channel works best for me. Muti-channel is use when people are over or as background music when I am concentrating on something else. I normally listen to music around -40 to -35 and movies -20 to -15 on the avr. I guess I am a light listener most of the time.

[Zen Traveler]

_{Double post}

Edited February 9, 2014 by tkdamerica

[Zen Traveler]

Does anyone use an SPL meter to see how loud they listen to material?

[etc6849]

I find I usually enjoy reference level the most. Sometimes I'll turn it down some, but things really do sound better loud. I know Audyssey DEQ can fix this using psycho-acoustic algorithms, but I usually leave it turned off.

For the -12dB speaker levels: usually that means 0dB on the AVR or AVP means it may be above reference level as there's not enough trim to lower level. It also could mean that Audyssey can't adjust freq response (FR) down as much, but still could EQ in the positive direction.

I use an ATI AT2007 amp that's pretty powerful (200W+ with all channels driven over 20-20000hz). I had to use balanced XLR pads (~ -12dB) between the Marantz AV8801 and my amp so that LS II's trim level would be closer to 0 on the Marantz. I also leave my setup on "Audyssey Flat" as I find it sounds best that way. I think the pads improved Audyssey's performance, but it could just be my mind playing tricks on me.

Edited February 9, 2014 by etc6849

[Zen Traveler]

I find I usually enjoy reference level the most. Sometimes I'll turn it down some, but things really do sound better loud. I know Audyssey DEQ can fix this using psycho-acoustic algorithms, but I usually leave it turned off.

For the -12dB speaker levels: usually that means 0dB on the AVR or AVP means it may be above reference level as there's not enough trim to lower level. It also could mean that Audyssey can't adjust freq response (FR) down as much, but still could EQ in the positive direction.

I use an ATI AT2007 amp that's pretty powerful (200W+ with all channels driven over 20-20000hz). I had to use balanced XLR pads (~ -12dB) between the Marantz AV8801 and my amp so that LS II's trim level would be closer to 0 on the Marantz. I also leave my setup on "Audyssey Flat" as I find it sounds best that way. I think the pads improved Audyssey's performance, but it could just be my mind playing tricks on me.

You have a nice setup and that was another thing about Audyssey that I found intriguing--With most people's trims being set so far down in the negative level, it shows that it doesn't require a lot of power to drive our Klipsch Speaker systems.

Edited February 11, 2014 by tkdamerica

[derrickdj1]

Negative numbers reflect attenuation due to the speakers sensitivity/efficency.

[garyrc]

I find I usually enjoy reference level the most. Sometimes I'll turn it down some, but things really do sound better loud. I know Audyssey DEQ can fix this using psycho-acoustic algorithms, but I usually leave it turned off.

I also leave DEQ off most of the time, and listen near reference level. IMO, DEQ seems to reduce clarity (with some material).

[Zen Traveler]

Negative numbers reflect attenuation due to the speakers sensitivity/efficency.

I understand....What I don't understand is adding external amplification to an AVR when one gets trim levels in the -5 to - 8 range already.

Edited February 12, 2014 by tkdamerica

[Zen Traveler]

I find I usually enjoy reference level the most. Sometimes I'll turn it down some, but things really do sound better loud. I know Audyssey DEQ can fix this using psycho-acoustic algorithms, but I usually leave it turned off.

I also leave DEQ off most of the time, and listen near reference level. IMO, DEQ seems to reduce clarity (with some material).

Fwiw, I leave mine on but remember there are diminishing returns as you get close to "0" because at that point DEQ isn't being used.

[willland]

Negative numbers reflect attenuation due to the speakers sensitivity/efficency.

I understand....What I don't understand is adding external amplification to an AVR when one gets trim levels in the -5 to - 8 range already.

IMO, it's not about the loudness of playback, it's about the quality of playback. 9 out of 10 times an outboard amp will produce better quality amplification over most AVRs. Those improvements can include slam, punch, soundstage, detail, presence, and of course dynamics.

Bill

[Zen Traveler]

Negative numbers reflect attenuation due to the speakers sensitivity/efficency.

I understand....What I don't understand is adding external amplification to an AVR when one gets trim levels in the -5 to - 8 range already.

IMO, it's not about the loudness of playback, it's about the quality of playback. 9 out of 10 times an outboard amp will produce better quality amplification over most AVRs. Those improvements can include slam, punch, soundstage, detail, presence, and of course dynamics.

Bill

That's why I also started the other thread about how loud people listen...I have no doubt some people benefit from an amp but I don't believe it's anywhere close to "9 out of 10."

EDIT: Imo, the test is to see how loud you can listen comfortably and then if you want it louder or it starts to distort, then an amp could be helpful...If someone wants to see if they actually benefit from an external amp, then after one knows how loud they like it, they can level match it the the avr at the same SPL and compare.

Edited February 13, 2014 by tkdamerica

[derrickdj1]

Negative numbers reflect attenuation due to the speakers sensitivity/efficency.

I understand....What I don't understand is adding external amplification to an AVR when one gets trim levels in the -5 to - 8 range already.

You mean like, what I am doing, lol. I have stated before that I like amps and may one day go with a separate preamp. How beneficial it is for me to run amps on top of a strong avr is very debatable. The system looks good with the power amp and, it is alway fashionable to look good, he he. Beside, it is the audiophile thing to do.

Edited February 13, 2014 by derrickdj1

[Zen Traveler]

Negative numbers reflect attenuation due to the speakers sensitivity/efficency.

I understand....What I don't understand is adding external amplification to an AVR when one gets trim levels in the -5 to - 8 range already.

You mean like, what I am doing, lol. I have stated before that I like amps and may one day go with a separate preamp. How beneficial it is for me to run amps on top of a strong avr is very debatable. The system looks good with the power amp and, it is alway fashionable to look good, he he. Beside, it is the audiophile thing to do.

Thank you for this post. I definitely wasn't trying to single you out but I recently had a discussion (along with MANY more) that everyone needs and Amp, I have followed your posts and understand your reasoning,

Edited February 13, 2014 by tkdamerica

[willland]

That's why I also started the other thread about how loud people listen...I have no doubt some people benefit from an amp but I don't believe it's anywhere close to "9 out of 10."

Let me clarify my 9 out of 10 reply. Most people do not purchase "flagship" AVR's like the Denon AVR-4311CI, Onkyo TX-NR5010, NAD T787, etc., all with high quality(for an AVR) power supplies and DACs. I should have better said most mid-level AVRs will benefit with outboard amplification.

Bill

[derrickdj1]

The use of an avr has a preamp is not so simple. Using lower and mid class avr's can lead to no benefit when used with a power amp. For example if the avr's voltage gain or signal is a 1 volt RMS paired with an amp expecting a high gain, the preamp signal wil clip and no benefit from the power amp. To much gain from the amp is also not ideal, this lead to noise which we have heard about many times on the forum. One benefit of using a good avr is the the preamp section. Good preamps are expensive and can cost more than what a lot of ud paid for an avr. The avr's come from large companies most of the time where as, the preamp companies are small and can't offer as many features as the avr's at a lower cost. Room correction is one that comes to mind.

Picking out the gear for synergy is the key to pairing an amp with an avr. To little voltage gain equal clipped signals and distortion and to much voltage gain lead to a a loud noise floor. I also don't think the negative channel level refect that there is adequate power for dynamics. HT dynamic may require 4 or 5 times the power and the preamp in some avr's may not be up to the task. Since everyone has different equipment this subject get's confusing. For me, the use of an avr with a good preamp section is a very cost effective way to get a high quality system.

Edited February 14, 2014 by derrickdj1

[etc6849]

I agree. One thing worth noting for others is if your preamp has too high of a voltage, there's always the option of a voltage divider (e.g. padding circuit) between the preamp and the amp. This doesn't degrade the sound quality at all. You do have to google and calculate the resistor values for the padding circuit, know how to solder, etc...

If the preout voltage is too low (which I think is the case on a lot of AVRs), I think you could get some device to boost levels between the preamp and amp, but it would look like a cludge.

I had to use balanced padding circuits between my AV8801 and my amp, but it completely got rid of the noise floor I could hear and allowed Audyssey to set speaker levels near 0. I'd much rather have a preamp that puts too much voltage than one that doesn't put out enough. If you get full sized XLR connectors, you can fit the resistors inside the cable so everything still looks nice.

Picking out the gear for synergy is the key to pairing an amp with an avr. To little voltage gain equal clipped signals and distortion and to much voltage gain lead to a a loud noise floor. I also don't think the negative channel level refect that there is adequate power for dynamics. HT dynamic may require 4 or 5 times the power and the preamp in some avr's may not be up to the task. Since everyone has different equipment this subject get's confusing. For me, the use of an avr with a good preamp section is a very cost effective way to get a high quality system.

[etc6849]

Meant to post this before, but lost power yesterday due to the snow.

Bill, I agree with your post. Before I owned the La Scala's I used an 7.1 RF-83 setup. I was using one of Onkyo's flagship receivers, but I immediately noticed an improvement after adding the ATI AT2007 amp. Car doors, drums, etc all sounded better than the AVR (TX-NR905) alone.

I think the issue is the large impedance swings of the three 8" woofers really demand a lot from an AVR already running 7 channels, plus the fact that no AVR is actually rated for what's stated on the box. Even AVR's rated with all channels driven still state @1kHz, which is not realistic at all as the lower frequencies are going to demand the most power from the power supply.

TKD, realize ATI rates their stuff with all channels driven so it's a lot more powerful than what it looks like. Now compare the rating to this: http://www.onkyousa.com/Products/model.php?m=TX-NR905&class=Receiver&source=prodClass Notice how sneaky Onkyo is with the specs? Who the $%^ listens to only the rear channels with no other channels driven? Why even publish that confusing stuff? The dynamic rating is really telling, it's only with one channel driven...

Certainly, the LS II's do not need a large an amp like my RF-83 setup did. However, there's nothing wrong with having headroom, a really large power supply (the amp weighs almost 100 lbs), and actually having a clipping indicator (never seen this on an AVR). For others: I didn't pay retail for my amp, but if you call ATI and ask for Jeff, he'll give you a great deal on a "B-Stock" unit.

That's why I also started the other thread about how loud people listen...I have no doubt some people benefit from an amp but I don't believe it's anywhere close to "9 out of 10."

Let me clarify my 9 out of 10 reply. Most people do not purchase "flagship" AVR's like the Denon AVR-4311CI, Onkyo TX-NR5010, NAD T787, etc., all with high quality(for an AVR) power supplies and DACs. I should have better said most mid-level AVRs will benefit with outboard amplification.

Bill