etc6849 Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 So, I picked up four used LS II's last year. However, the more I read, the more I see folks saying a tube amp makes speakers like mine sound really good and my speaker will not sound as good with a solid state amp. Of course, not having any tube amps to try (that's what I get for being young), I'm somewhat skeptical as the speakers sound beautiful (best I've owned or heard, but no one I know is an audiophile) on my ATI AT2007 amp that I was using for my RF-83 setup. However, I'm still curious. Are the tube amp folks just trying really crappy solid state amps that really don't sound good at a few watts since they're made for non-efficient speakers? Or is there some technical benefit to using tube amps? My understanding from an engineering standpoint was that most tube amps color sound. Maybe this isn't true? Here's my equipment: http://www.ati-amp.com/AT2000.php http://us.marantz.com/us/Products/Pages/ProductDetails.aspx?CatId=avseparates&SubCatId=&ProductId=AV8801 I installed -12dB balanced pads between the AV8801 and the AT2007. I'm also using Audyssey MultiEQ XT32 and dual RT-12d subs. Audyssey is set to use the Audyssey Flat curve. My system measures flat between 19hz and 15khz. There's a drop off above ~16khz, not sure if it's the LS II's or my USB mic. I don't use the RC-64 anymore in my avatar as I found the LS just sound better for voice. I'm not too worried given how great they sound, but if there's really a huge improvement to be gained with a couple tube amps, I wouldn't mind trying them out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iRONic Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 "Need," of course not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schu Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 (edited) you'll never know until you try it. some... SS amplifiers are a compromise because they are engineered to do MANY THINGS. I think you would be closer to the truth if you were using SS Monoblock amps. .03%THD of the ati is not outstanding... some SS amplifiers are well below .005%THD. it would be great if you had some friends with whom you could try different set ups prior to making another investment. Edited February 17, 2014 by Schu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minermark Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 Look into the imported amps on Ebay, I bought mine from a guy called "Primeamp" a couple of good Mono blocks will set you back $600+, but shipping sucks, seems to always be around $200bones, still these tube amps are direct copies of all the great American amps ever made. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quiet_Hollow Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 (edited) There's tubes and then there's top-tier SS like the Pass Labs First Watt series or the Bendini 25/25. However, if the majority of your source material is digital you'll always be at the mercy of a DAC regardless of the power amp. In which case, a chip amp like Pioneer's D3-equipped AVR or NAD C390DD provides an elegant solution. Edited February 17, 2014 by Quiet_Hollow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
etc6849 Posted February 17, 2014 Author Share Posted February 17, 2014 You are right, THD looks high as ATI always specs their stuff more conservative than others. The .03% THD is 20hz-20khz with all channels driven at full power. Most manufacturers only provide THD @ 1kHz and full power (from what I've read). The link states this THD for the ATI AT2007 is .005%. .03%THD of the ati is not outstanding... some SS amplifiers are well below .005%THD. it would be great if you had some friends with whom you could try different set ups prior to making another investment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
etc6849 Posted February 17, 2014 Author Share Posted February 17, 2014 If you're ever on the road, you're more than welcome to stop by! Since I moved here in 2010, I've been very surprised at how few people are interested in audio. There's only one audio shop, and they only display these little speakers now since that's what folks want. Chicago had all kinds of audiophile stores. I even heard the PF-39's at one store. it would be great if you had some friends with whom you could try different set ups prior to making another investment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ski Bum Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 (edited) Hey, another ATI user. Great amps. I alternate between an AT602 and single ended tube amps, depending on my mood. I don't like pp tubes as much as the brutal honesty of plain ol' linear amps or the sweet clarity and vivacious sound of the single ended types. PP provide less tube character than the se types, with added complexity and cost. My two cents. Your 'Scalas will give you an up close and personal taste of whatever you feed them. Your ATI won't embellish. Tube amps cover the range of no embellishment to rather extreme embellishment (the single ended types, which while technical turds can sound flat out amazing). Your 'Scalas are sensitive enough that your options are wide open. I would take a chance on one of Justin's amps rather than something of unknown pedigree. Edited February 17, 2014 by Ski Bum Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
etc6849 Posted February 17, 2014 Author Share Posted February 17, 2014 (edited) The DAC aspect is another good question I should have asked too... I mostly listen to DVD-A's that I've ripped to flac files (usually multi-channel 96khz, 24 bit). Sometimes I'll use a Pioneer DV58AV player to play SACD discs as it can bitstream DSD over HDMI to the preamp. I'd considered trying out an Oppo 105, but with that I didn't see the point as I'd have to bypass room correction to bypass the DACs in my preamp. However, just as with the tube amps, I've read several posts that swear by the higher end DACs in the Oppo. There's tubes and then there's top-tier SS like the Pass Labs F-series or the Bendini 25/25. However, if the majority of your source material is digital you'll always be at the mercy of a DAC regardless of the power amp. In which case, a chip amp like Pioneer's D3-equipped AVR or NAD C390DD provides an elegant solution. Edited February 17, 2014 by etc6849 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minermark Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 And on a side note, being into tube one way or another for 40+ years, and tube audio for the better part of 11 years, every tube amp iv had, no matter what I spent getting it, pretty much got my money back at time of sale. keep them in good shape and it that workout for anyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
etc6849 Posted February 17, 2014 Author Share Posted February 17, 2014 That's a valid point. I bought the LS II's because I thought I could always resale them for a little more than I paid. I wasn't expecting them to be that much better than my RF-83's, and actually planned to sell them after trying my first pair out. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tigerwoodKhorns Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 When I first started out here in 2002 I had K Horns and a Denon AVR 5800 receiver (their top of the line at the time). I kept reading (on this forum) about how much better tubes sounded and how it will get rid of all of the harshness that everyone experiences with SS. Now, I tried to hear the harsness, but I could not hear it. The system sounded really good. I went the tube route and the tubes sounded very good, but there was no some new clarity or anything like that. After years of doing this hobby I now have all SS, including another Denon 5800 in storage that I picked up a few years ago. Your Marantz is quite a unit. YMMV. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
etc6849 Posted February 17, 2014 Author Share Posted February 17, 2014 (edited) Thanks. I got a great deal on the AV8801 from ebay. It wasn't as great a value as the ATI amp was and certainly won't hold its value like an amp or heritage speakers. However, it's nice having onscreen menus, multieq xt32, dual sub outputs etc... I've never heard harshness from my la scala's. I have heard hiss or lack of dynamic range on bad recordings though, and it's really noticeable now. These same bad recordings sound ok in my car, but my system is too accurate now! Edited February 17, 2014 by etc6849 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest David H Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 There's tubes and then there's top-tier SS like the Pass Labs First Watt series or the Bendini 25/25. I run mostly SET tube amps, because I like the way they sound, however I do have a fantastic sounding Vintage Mcintosh MC-2100. I am currently building a First Watt F5, so I hope to be able to comment on this one soon. For my HT, I have run Pioneer Elite and Dennon, both fine amps, and perfect for my theater, but my preference for horns is tubes. Either way, if you are happy with the sound, no need to change. Dave 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
etc6849 Posted February 17, 2014 Author Share Posted February 17, 2014 I like the idea of building an amp. Sounds like it'd be a neat hobby to get into. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CECAA850 Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 One more plug for the ATI's. They're great sounding amps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
etc6849 Posted February 17, 2014 Author Share Posted February 17, 2014 They really are great sounding amps, and have an excellent slew rate of 70V/us. If anyone ever wants one, be sure to call Jeff @ ATI and ask about b-stock units. Mine was about 55-60% off retail, had no scratches, etc... ATI's "b-stock" is really just overstock and they call it b-stock so they don't make their distributors mad as they undercut retail price. It's really hard to beat a true differential 7 channel amp that weighs 100 lbs for $2000 + shipping and includes a 7 year warranty. It'll do 300 watts into a 4 ohm load with all channels driven from 20hz to 20khz (375 watts @ 1khz into 4 ohms). Since each channel has its own transformer windings, it's effectively the same as having 7 mono blocks. They sell on ebay between $1900 and 2200 used, so I think Jeff gave me a great deal. One more plug for the ATI's. They're great sounding amps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CECAA850 Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 I have a 150wpc ATI on a pair of KP-301 II's. Along with being crystal clear and non fatiguing on top, it has an absolutely chest pounding bottom end. It can really put the current out when needed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZombieWoof Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 Yeah , those ATI's are great ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
etc6849 Posted February 21, 2014 Author Share Posted February 21, 2014 A lot of great stuff is still made in the US. However, usually I can't afford it though and have to buy used or b-stock... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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