What is more accurate horns or cones

[Chief bonehead]

Horns.

[ClaudeJ1]

There are better horn sub options if you haven't already decided on the Fitzmaurice stuff...

Do tell. Number them in order of preference too.

[mdross1]

I'm all ears you guys been through this before. Way back when deciding on sub woofer for living room that too ended up being confusing at first till mother spelled out nothing to imposing. So many opinions with so many choices makes the decision near impossible especially without being able to listen to a few examples.

In this case floor space has to be a part of the process and why BFM subs are one of the options, my ears will be the judge.

I regularly visit three other forums adding to the confusion and I want to build the cabs.

[ClaudeJ1]

I'm all ears you guys been through this before. Way back when deciding on sub woofer for living room that too ended up being confusing at first till mother spelled out nothing to imposing. So many opinions with so many choices makes the decision near impossible especially without being able to listen to a few examples.

In this case floor space has to be a part of the process and why BFM subs are one of the options, my ears will be the judge.

I regularly visit three other forums adding to the confusion and I want to build the cabs.

If you are building, I would seriously consider the F-20 sub from Lil Mike on the DIY forum. They are soooo much easier to build than THT's. I just heard a pair of these with my Quarter Pies and they are superb. With their dimensions, you can stand them up in a corner or lay them down. They are a good match to a LaScala since they will go up over 100 Hz. Tapped horns go lower than 20 Hz. but get funky above 60 Hz. AND they are not as efficient as full horns like the F-20 and THT. I have had both.

[Chris A]

FYI: The F20 subwoofer thread on the AVS Forum can be found here: http://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-diy-speakers-subs/1329971-lilmike-s-cinema-f-20-a.html

This looks like respectable performance for a conventional horn-loaded sub. I find that it's very nice to have solid 20 Hz performance in a sub and this design has a bit of that--not a lot, and with some harmonic distortion--but I think most folks will find it to be more than sufficient. Plus this design seems to have better higher frequency response than tapped horn (TH) subs that I've seen. Looks like a good design compromise from the graphs, plus build-ability looks reasonable as Claude mentioned above.

I'm not very familiar with BFM subs, but the designs that I've seen seem to have poorer frequency response (FR) curves and other performance parameters relative to the F20 design discussed here. I always recommend placing subs in the corners of the room, just behind your front mains then EQing and time-aligning the whole lot to be like one loudspeaker on each side to get ~flat FR down to 20-25 Hz. This will dramatically reduce the harmonic distortion at or below 20 Hz shown in the graphs--assuming that the author was testing in half space outside on the ground when he generated the plots shown in his build thread.

Your ears will like the results, I believe.

Chris

Edited July 15, 2014 by Chris A

[jason str]

I'm not very familiar with BFM subs, but the designs that I've seen seem to have poorer frequency response (FR) curves and other performance parameters relative to the F20 design discussed here. I always recommend placing subs in the corners of the room, just behind your front mains then EQing the whole lot to be like one loudspeaker on each side to get ~flat FR down to 20-25 Hz. This will dramatically reduce the harmonic distortion at or below 20 Hz shown in the graphs--assuming that the author was testing in half space outside on the ground when he generated the plots shown in his build thread.

Your ears will like the results, I believe.

Chris

To say one is better than the other depends on cabinet width & driver compliment.

There is only one design for the F-20, the THT has many build options.

Different drivers work better than others depending on how wide you build your cabinet.

I agree with the others here about a tapped horn not being able to match up well to the La Scala or Belle bass bin, tapped horns get distorted before meeting the ~100 Hz cutoff point.

Edited July 15, 2014 by jason str

[Quiet_Hollow]

I'll refrain from specifics, but suffice to say I'm taking my THT with me to the grave.

[ClaudeJ1]

I'll refrain from specifics, but suffice to say I'm taking my THT with me to the grave.

The THT has withstood the toughest test of all. The test of TIME. Even though it's harder to build, the way it's structured allow one to use thinner, less expensive plywood, so it's easier to move without calling an ambulance afterwards like most of the others out there. My Danleys are almost 300 pounds each. and I moved them by myself. Trying to quit that. Thank goodness I own a dolly.

Edited July 15, 2014 by ClaudeJ1

[jason str]

I'll refrain from specifics, but suffice to say I'm taking my THT with me to the grave.

People who actually own them will wholeheartedly agree.

[jason str]

The THT has withstood the toughest test of all. The test of TIME. Even though it's harder to build, the way it's structured allow one to use thinner, less expensive plywood, so it's easier to move without calling an ambulance afterwards like most of the others out there. My Danleys are almost 300 pounds each. and I moved them by myself. Trying to quit that. Thank goodness I own a dolly.

Lifting not only sucks it can be hazardous, i dam near busted a nut lifting my full turbo 400 tranny with converter out of my 73 delta 88 to get it to the trans rebuilder for racing usage, never again will i strain myself, its just easier to find some help.

Edited July 15, 2014 by jason str

[DrWho]

There are better horn sub options if you haven't already decided on the Fitzmaurice stuff...

Do tell. Number them in order of preference too.

This has a widget that will help sort for you:

http://www.data-bass.com/

(Is the site down at the moment? It's not working for me right now - maybe a DNS issue or something)

The Othorn is hands down the best performance per cubic foot, and will offer a very solid 25Hz corner. Tapped horns don't seem to benefit from room gain in the same way so don't be too hopeful about extending the LF performance too much.

If you really want to go lower, then the Gjallarhorn is a good option - but you're going to give up some performance in the top octave of the subwoofer (which I think is more important for music).

I've not had a chance to hear anything super similar to the F20 for myself, but its measurements look good and it gets away with a much cheaper driver (of course at the expense of SPL and distortion).

The DTS-10 is another good one, but be prepared to xover at a much lower frequency...Apparently they offer the kits around the November/December timeframe each year?

Has anyone ever shot out the THT against any of the other more potent designs out there? The THD measurements are what sent me flying to other designs. I honestly would go with a standard vented cabinet first...

Of course at the end of the day the room modes are what dominate and that Dual Zoned Bass Array approach has gotta be the best and most elegant solution out there. I've always wanted to implement it with a bifurcated tapped horn so you can use fewer drivers for the same number of apparent acoustic sources required by the approach....

[jason str]

There are better horn sub options if you haven't already decided on the Fitzmaurice stuff...

Do tell. Number them in order of preference too.

This has a widget that will help sort for you:

http://www.data-bass.com/

(Is the site down at the moment? It's not working for me right now - maybe a DNS issue or something)

The Othorn is hands down the best performance per cubic foot, and will offer a very solid 25Hz corner. Tapped horns don't seem to benefit from room gain in the same way so don't be too hopeful about extending the LF performance too much.

If you really want to go lower, then the Gjallarhorn is a good option - but you're going to give up some performance in the top octave of the subwoofer (which I think is more important for music).

I've not had a chance to hear anything super similar to the F20 for myself, but its measurements look good and it gets away with a much cheaper driver (of course at the expense of SPL and distortion).

The DTS-10 is another good one, but be prepared to xover at a much lower frequency...Apparently they offer the kits around the November/December timeframe each year?

Has anyone ever shot out the THT against any of the other more potent designs out there? The THD measurements are what sent me flying to other designs. I honestly would go with a standard vented cabinet first...

Of course at the end of the day the room modes are what dominate and that Dual Zoned Bass Array approach has gotta be the best and most elegant solution out there. I've always wanted to implement it with a bifurcated tapped horn so you can use fewer drivers for the same number of apparent acoustic sources required by the approach....

Mike, it sounds to me like you have a personal vendetta against Bill's designs, this is not the first time i have heard negative remarks on the subject.

Comparing the THT to your other choices is just slightly unfair as just the driver alone is 3-6 times the price of the Dayton recommended for the THT not to mention the cost of higher priced materials you would need to build these units.

If you have some factual data on the THT to share please do so but saying the distortion measurements sent you flying to other designs can't be the case.

If you never heard something similar to the F-20 then you never heard the THT and if you never heard the THT there's no way you spent any time testing it to comment on distortion.

The F-20 is just a THT knockoff and the unbraced 3/4" plywood would have more distortion than the THT as the lack of bracing contributes to THD, you get what you pay for.

Every design has compromises, the THT is a big *** horn but everybody who owns one loves them.

Edited July 16, 2014 by jason str

[Chris A]

This has a widget that will help sort for you:

http://www.data-bass.com/

(Is the site down at the moment? It's not working for me right now - maybe a DNS issue or something)...

Mike, it sounds to me like you have a personal vendetta against Bill's designs, this is not the first time i have heard negative remarks on the subject...If you have some factual data on the THT to share please do so but saying the distortion measurements sent you flying to other designs can't be the case.

Every design has compromises, the THT is a big *** horn but everybody who owns one loves them.

I certainly don't want to dilute this future discussion between you and Bentz, but I do have a question and a point on this topic:

Question 1: Do you have independent half-space frequency response measurements on the THT design(s) that has proper scaling of the vertical axis? I'm not referring to the figures on the BFM site - but others that have tested it in half-space? I can't find anything or the path length, unfortunately, and the stuff that I do find shows its FR dropping, starting above 30 Hz (i.e., appearing to be its real "cutoff frequency" unless placed in good corners of a room, like a corner horn). My definition of a subwoofer for home use typically includes something closer to flat response down to 20 Hz (about 14 feet of path length for a horn-loaded subwoofer) in half space instead of 30 Hz, i.e., another ~1/3 octave lower, which apparently makes a THT more of a corner-horn-loaded bass bin than subwoofer (IMHO), based on looking as its BFM-provided FR curve alone.

Point 1: If the controlling measure of merit for hi-fi is "everyone that owns them, loves them", then there are a lot of Bose 901 owners that would argue that they have hi-fi when listening to these units. Good measures for comparing different DIY subwoofer designs might differ from that measure. YMMV.

Chris

Edited July 16, 2014 by Chris A

[DrWho]

No personal vendetta here - I'm an equal opportunity hater (or so my friends say)

Here is the THT in half space:

Distortion at 60Hz:

Or you could read this thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-diy-speakers-subs/1301441-tuba-ht-tht-compromises-trade-offs.html

[DrWho]

I just wanted to add that the factual performance measure of different designs should have no merit on your enjoyment of your own equipment.

[Chris A]

Okay, thanks for the plots and the link. My opinion of the THT hasn't changed from before our conversation here. I believe that design may satisfy many people as a corner-loaded bass bin (but probably not me), but I wouldn't really call it a "subwoofer" (as in "infrasonic bass bin").

If you like the THT, then I'd also recommend a Khorn bass bin, or even perhaps two...

Edited July 16, 2014 by Chris A

[jason str]

This has a widget that will help sort for you:

http://www.data-bass.com/

(Is the site down at the moment? It's not working for me right now - maybe a DNS issue or something)...

Mike, it sounds to me like you have a personal vendetta against Bill's designs, this is not the first time i have heard negative remarks on the subject...If you have some factual data on the THT to share please do so but saying the distortion measurements sent you flying to other designs can't be the case.

Every design has compromises, the THT is a big *** horn but everybody who owns one loves them.

I certainly don't want to dilute this future discussion between you and Bentz, but I do have a question and a point on this topic:

Question 1: Do you have independent half-space frequency response measurements on the THT design(s) that has proper scaling of the vertical axis? I'm not referring to the figures on the BFM site - but others that have tested it in half-space? I can't find anything or the path length, unfortunately, and the stuff that I do find shows its FR dropping, starting above 30 Hz (i.e., appearing to be its real "cutoff frequency" unless placed in good corners of a room, like a corner horn). My definition of a subwoofer for home use typically includes something closer to flat response down to 20 Hz (about 14 feet of path length for a horn-loaded subwoofer) in half space instead of 30 Hz, i.e., another ~1/3 octave lower, which apparently makes a THT more of a corner-horn-loaded bass bin than subwoofer (IMHO), based on looking as its BFM-provided FR curve alone.

Point 1: If the controlling measure of merit for hi-fi is "everyone that owns them, loves them", then there are a lot of Bose 901 owners that would argue that they have hi-fi when listening to these units. Good measures for comparing different DIY subwoofer designs might differ from that measure. YMMV.

Chris

There are some independent measurements taken by people who have built the THT on Bill's forum, most have been measured in room. I'm not good at searching around but if you like feel free to do so.

If i recall the THT horn path is right near 14 Ft and tuned to 22Hz.

Bill does recommend wall or corner loading but its not a necessity, the response should go lower and flatter.

Corner loaded bass bin or subwoofer, whats the difference if it gets the job done. Once you get below 20 or 25 Hz distortion gets out of control anyways even on the most pricey subs out there.

Most who use a horn loaded sub also have horn loaded mains, they should know what low distortion sounds like.

Why bring up the 901, thats like comparing apples to turds.

[jason str]

No personal vendetta here - I'm an equal opportunity hater (or so my friends say)

Here is the THT in half space:

Distortion at 60Hz:

Or you could read this thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-diy-speakers-subs/1301441-tuba-ht-tht-compromises-trade-offs.html

This distortion graph doesen't make sense, distortion should rise with lower notes as cone travel increases.

Here is a link that makes more sense.

[jason str]

Okay, thanks for the plots and the link. My opinion of the THT hasn't changed from before our conversation here. I believe that design may satisfy many people as a corner-loaded bass bin (but probably not me), but I wouldn't really call it a "subwoofer" (as in "infrasonic bass bin").

If you like the THT, then I'd also recommend a Khorn bass bin, or even perhaps two...

I'm personally not a big fan of the K-horn, i think it sacrifices too much midbass detail IMHO.

The La Scala with a horn sub works so much better.

[DrWho]

Have you heard the F-20 Chris?

Btw, I see Jason is an "Authorised builder in Chicago" over on the BFM forums...