USNRET Posted August 31, 2014 Share Posted August 31, 2014 I have a GFCI outlet in the garage serving 5 outlets all inside serving freezer, fridge, low voltage lighting and sprinklers. The protection trips in random fashion even when nothing is plugged in. I see no evidence of water intrusion but it has happened yesterday and today a lot when it has rained but I seem to remember that it does it when dry as well. Sometimes it will re-set immediately and sometimes not for an hour or so. I have not put any nails or screws in the walls. Other than a faulty GFCI mechanism at outlet do y'all have any other thoughts how to troubleshoot? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joessportster Posted August 31, 2014 Share Posted August 31, 2014 if it were a short from a nail or screw it would not be attributed to GFCI only. It would likely be a direct short (although I have seen them as intermittent) The GFCI would be my suspect they are finicky at times, Moisture over time creates oxidation / corrosion, if the GFCI detects moisture it can take an extended period to reset. We often had problems on the trains where customers would spill drinks on the outlets and would have to wait HOURS for them to dry out before reset could occur. We also had issues with Coke spilled on them the coke would dry and cause a short causing replacement of the outlet Each car had I believe like 100 outlets trouble shooting started by disconnecting at the far end and working our way back till we found one that worked a real PITA In your case I would start with replacing the GFCI Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CECAA850 Posted August 31, 2014 Share Posted August 31, 2014 The GFCI would be my suspect they are finicky at times, Agreed. I had a GFCI circuit on my pool pump. Every time we had an exceptionally hard rain it would trip and shut the pool pump off. I ended up having an electrician come out to check it out. He said that they were so sensitive that moisture on the conduit was enough to carry a millivolt of current and trip them. He installed a regular circuit breaker and I never had another problem. He also said that a GFCI circuit wasn't needed there (by code). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mustang guy Posted August 31, 2014 Share Posted August 31, 2014 I have a GFCI outlet in the garage serving 5 outlets all inside serving freezer, fridge, low voltage lighting and sprinklers. The protection trips in random fashion even when nothing is plugged in. I see no evidence of water intrusion but it has happened yesterday and today a lot when it has rained but I seem to remember that it does it when dry as well. Sometimes it will re-set immediately and sometimes not for an hour or so. I have not put any nails or screws in the walls. Other than a faulty GFCI mechanism at outlet do y'all have any other thoughts how to troubleshoot? You have a GFCI outlet or is it a GFCI breaker? If it is an outlet as you say, it's a simple matter to install seperate GFCI's on each outlet. If one of them trips randomly, then you have your culprit. If it is a breaker, that would be remedied in the same way, except you replace the breaker with an ordinary one and install GFCI outlets. The GFCI would be my suspect they are finicky at times, Agreed. I had a GFCI circuit on my pool pump. Every time we had an exceptionally hard rain it would trip and shut the pool pump off. I ended up having an electrician come out to check it out. He said that they were so sensitive that moisture on the conduit was enough to carry a millivolt of current and trip them. He installed a regular circuit breaker and I never had another problem. He also said that a GFCI circuit wasn't needed there (by code). That's scary Carl. It seems counter-intuitive. I have a GFCI on my pool pump. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mustang guy Posted August 31, 2014 Share Posted August 31, 2014 Carl, I was concerned, so I did a Google on pool pump gfci code, and I got this: NEC Requirements for Ground-Fault Circuit Interrupters (GFCI) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CECAA850 Posted August 31, 2014 Share Posted August 31, 2014 (edited) Carl, I was concerned, so I did a Google on pool pump gfci code, and I got this: NEC Requirements for Ground-Fault Circuit Interrupters (GFCI) It's not an outlet or lamp. Your link addresses receptacles and lighting. It doesn't address hard wired pumps which I have. Edited August 31, 2014 by CECAA850 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
USNRET Posted August 31, 2014 Author Share Posted August 31, 2014 It is a GFCI outlet serving the outlets down stream. I replaced the GFCI outlet and that didn't fix it. I inspected all the outlets that I know of on that line, no obvious shorts or other issues all were dry. I find that all outside outlets are dead as well. I can plug in my circuit tester to the GFCI outlet in the garage and when I reset it the "Correct" indication lights on the tester will illuminate briefly until the outlet protects again. I plugged the tested into the outside outlets and no such flash happens. All breakers appear to be closed. Time to pay an electrician. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators dtel Posted August 31, 2014 Moderators Share Posted August 31, 2014 (edited) If there are any other outlets outside that you don't know of possably on that circuit, it could be the problem. Turn off that circuit and check any other outlets that may be dead, it could be the one causing the problem. I have had that problem and it was one outlet in the yard that ants built a nest in which caused the problem, they love outdoor electrical boxes. I have also had a GFIC go bad for no reason, maby try a GFIC breaker on that circuit and see if it helps, but there not cheap, well the larger amp ones aren't. Different GFIC receptacles are rated for a certain amount of power, could the freezer compressor kicking in be causing it to trip, maby to much of a load for that GFIC ? Edited August 31, 2014 by dtel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mustang guy Posted August 31, 2014 Share Posted August 31, 2014 (edited) Carl, I was concerned, so I did a Google on pool pump gfci code, and I got this: NEC Requirements for Ground-Fault Circuit Interrupters (GFCI) It's not an outlet or lamp. Your link addresses receptacles and lighting. It doesn't address hard wired pumps which I have. This is directly from that document: Permanent swimming pools. The Code also requires GFCI protection for luminaries, lighting outlets, circulation and sanitation system equipment, and pump motor receptacles located near swimming pools. Per 680.22(A)(5), all 125V receptacles located within 6 m (20 ft) of the walls of a pool or fountain must be protected by a GFCI. In addition, receptacles that supply pool pump motors and that are rated 15A or 20A, 120V through 240V, single phase, must have GFCI protection. And you must install a GFCI in the branch circuit supplying luminaries operating at more than 15V. If the pool is equipped with an electrically operated pool cover, this too must be GFCI-protected. Is it because this isn't a receptacle (it's hard wired) that it isn't dangerous? Edited August 31, 2014 by mustang guy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
USNRET Posted August 31, 2014 Author Share Posted August 31, 2014 (edited) If there are any other outlets outside that you don't know of possably on that circuit, it could be the problem. Turn off that circuit and check any other outlets that may be dead, it could be the one causing the problem. I have had that problem and it was one outlet in the yard that ants built a nest in which caused the problem, they love outdoor electrical boxes. I have also had a GFIC go bad for no reason, maby try a GFIC breaker on that circuit and see if it helps, but there not cheap, well the larger amp ones aren't. Different GFIC receptacles are rated for a certain amount of power, could the freezer compressor kicking in be causing it to trip, maby to much of a load for that GFIC ? It appears all outdoor outlets are dead; all are mounted in the brick walls, none "free standing and appear to be on a different circuit. I will be checking to map circuits with my 'breaker finder'. GFCI trips with everything unplugged and with new GFCI outlet installed. Edit: As I suspected my Klein circuit finder doesn't work on a dead circuit since the transmitter is not self powered. Edited August 31, 2014 by USNRET Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
USNRET Posted August 31, 2014 Author Share Posted August 31, 2014 Does this sound reasonable? Disconnect the load wires from GFCI outlet, restore power and see if the GFCI outlet remains powered / doesn't trip? Then disconnect all known outlets, re-connect load wires to GFCI outlet and see what happens. I wish I knew which wires at protected outlet terminals were input and output for lack of a better way to put it. I guess I could isolate all and if GFCI outlet remains powered with all wires removed from downstream outlets I could meter the wires. Not knowing the runs in the walls this could be painful (no pun intended) connecting one outlet at a time.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CECAA850 Posted August 31, 2014 Share Posted August 31, 2014 Is it because this isn't a receptacle (it's hard wired) that it isn't dangerous? I don't know but it seems that way. All I know is I hired a licensed electrical contractor who is a stickler for doing things to code and this is how they wired it. At the same time, they checked the entire grounding system on the pool electronics. I didn't ask them to but they do it as a matter of safety every time they work on pool wiring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CECAA850 Posted August 31, 2014 Share Posted August 31, 2014 Sorry for the thread jack Mike. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators dtel Posted August 31, 2014 Moderators Share Posted August 31, 2014 Does this sound reasonable? Disconnect the load wires from GFCI outlet, restore power and see if the GFCI outlet remains powered / doesn't trip? Then disconnect all known outlets, re-connect load wires to GFCI outlet and see what happens. It sounds reasonable, I just don't know if it needs the load wire to complete the circuit for the GFIC to work ? This sounds crazy I know........Disclaimer; just an idea not to be tried Every time (which was only a few) that I had an receptacle go bad for whatever reason It tripped the breaker without a fire or anything even close, just a little burn mark on the offending receptacle. What if, replacing the GFIC with a normal receptacle and if the breaker trips you could find the bad outlet easily, plus your circuit finder would work if it stays on. It was just a "what if"..........I would try it knowing it couldn't set the house on fire, but not good to give that advice so ....do not try that is my official answer. I know, someone will jump me for saying this, (it's OK) considering some have got themselves into a tizzy for just disconnecting the ground on an amp for just a minute to see if a hum would stop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CECAA850 Posted August 31, 2014 Share Posted August 31, 2014 low voltage lighting Have you disconnected this? From what I've read, fluorescent lighting and low voltage lighting can leak enough current to trip a GFCI circuit. 5 millivolts or less is enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
USNRET Posted August 31, 2014 Author Share Posted August 31, 2014 (edited) Carl, everything I know of was disconnected from the circuit. I too suspected water intrusion in the landscape lighting as I have some issues with that albeit on the output transformer side at the lights.Update: I disconnected load wires from GFCI outlet and it remains live as expected based on my understanding of how GFCI works (unless problem at THAT outlet). I loaded the GFCI outlet with freezer and it stays on. Now how to find the culprit? Wish I had the schematic of the house wiring! Edit: with load wires disconnected I read the following. At load wires I am showing zero AC voltage of course but a varying 350k Ohms between load wire black to ground (green wire ground). White to ground resistance varies but settles to open. I think next step would be a black wire disconnect from all known downstream outlets. Edited August 31, 2014 by USNRET Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CECAA850 Posted September 1, 2014 Share Posted September 1, 2014 but a varying 350k Ohms between load wire black to ground Shouldn't this be open? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minermark Posted September 1, 2014 Share Posted September 1, 2014 (edited) I have a GFCI outlet in the garage serving 5 outlets all inside serving freezer, fridge, low voltage lighting and sprinklers. The protection trips in random fashion even when nothing is plugged in. I see no evidence of water intrusion but it has happened yesterday and today a lot when it has rained but I seem to remember that it does it when dry as well. Sometimes it will re-set immediately and sometimes not for an hour or so. I have not put any nails or screws in the walls. Other than a faulty GFCI mechanism at outlet do y'all have any other thoughts how to troubleshoot? Your a homeowner, TAKE THE DAMM THING OUT! Scrw GFIs if there is no need. As long as there is NO chance of water being involved within 5'. Ya know, scrw this, i am an electrican, CALL ONE!. Edited September 1, 2014 by minermark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bhenry Posted September 1, 2014 Share Posted September 1, 2014 You're an electrician and you recommend removing GFCI from a garage and exterior receptacles? Remind me to never hire you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bhenry Posted September 1, 2014 Share Posted September 1, 2014 Why don't you just hire an electrician to investigate the problem? There are so many different reasons that the GFCI is tripping that would be no way to diagnose the problem over the phone or through this forum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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