Jubilee/MCM thoughts requested

[Decadent_Spectre]

Hoping someone can give their impressions on how the Jubilee/MCM systems would compare to Danley SH50s.

[Chris A]

The SH50 needs a bass bin that will go to at least 200 Hz. I'd actually recommend a Jubilee bass bin and not a TH subwoofer from Danley for the 31-200+ Hz band.  You could also use a MCM bin, but it is very, very wide.  Below 31-50 Hz (depending on which bass bin you use, with the Jubilee bass bin going lower), a TH sub from Danley would work very well, such as the DTS-10, or you could do a DIY Gjallarhorn or two.

 

But, I would believe that the SH50 would sounds very similar to the K-402 with a good compression driver, such as a TAD TD-4002 Beryllium dome/Neodymium magnet compression driver (...also similar in cost to an SH-50...). The SH50 only covers 50 degrees of azimuth, while the K-402 covers 90-100 degrees extremely well.  This means that the K-402 will actually sound better - filling the room with coherent sound from side wall-to-side wall - front to back.  You'd need two SH50s side-by-side to do the same thing on each side of a stereo setup.  The SH50 would work very well as a center channel--in very small listening rooms.

 

Chris

[Decadent_Spectre]

Hello Chris, thanks for the reply.

 

Apart from the coverage patterns/responses I was more curious about subjective differences, particularly if anyone has done a side by side. Are there any particular voicings/flavors that may favor certain material? I would guess that the K402 should be more dynamic (please correct me if I'm wrong) but would the Klipsch horn systems have the coherence and imaging of the Danley design? Imaging is particularly important to me, sharp precise life like vocals, that and excellent mid bass slam/punch.

 

I would also be interested to know why you suggest the Jubilee bass bin over Danley tapped horns or the SH50s own LF section.

[Chris A]

There may be a couple of folks here that can give you detailed listening differences - DrWho, fyrpwr, or perhaps artto.

 

Are there any particular voicings/flavors that may favor certain material?

I would guess that the K402 should be more dynamic (please correct me if I'm wrong) but would the Klipsch horn systems have the coherence and imaging of the Danley design? Imaging is particularly important to me, sharp precise life like vocals, that and excellent mid bass slam/punch.

 

I would also be interested to know why you suggest the Jubilee bass bin over Danley tapped horns or the SH50s own LF section.

 

Loudspeakers of this type don't favor any particular type of music other than anything recorded extremely well that's very dynamic and has a dramatic soundstage/image--that is the limitation of these types of loudspeakers: the source material (trust me).

 

The imaging from the K-402 with TADs is unsurpassed in my experience - it will cause you to work on your room acoustics to get everything out of them that you can. 

 

The Jub or MCM bass is very clean and realistic if placed in good corners, and if coupled with good and sufficient TH subs below 31 Hz, I can't imagine much that can beat the combination.  I've found that TH subs don't sound very good above about 40 Hz, plus you can hear the precursor pulse above that frequency.

Edited September 4, 2014 by Chris A

[Chris A]

Looking at the SH50's FR and phase curves (on axis), you might be able to crossover over at 70 Hz to a bass bin or TH subwoofer but the issues include hearing that precursor pulse if using a TH.  I see the SH50 and its cousins in the Synergy Horn series to all have this same dilemma of "what do you cross over to and where do you cross?" on their LF ends.  Some people don't find TH subs to be as objectionable in the 40-80 Hz octave to listen to. 

 

If you are willing to forgo this bottom end like many here that own La Scalas or Belles, then all you'll need are the SH50s, which will sound very coherent relative to these two Klipsch models mentioned (but not the Jubilee - which more than matches it).  For me, this isn't nearly enough bottom end at 50 Hz. 

 

If you place the SH50s in corners of the room, then you'll get a bit more LF extension and be able to cross lower toward that 40 Hz point with a TH sub, but you'll likely have to do a few acoustic treatments to suppress early midrange reflections from the side and front walls - out to at least 2 feet from the exit of the SH50's mouth on either wall.

 

You'll also have the issue of the SH50's low height to deal with - requiring some sort of solid riser to get the horn's axis to be near ear height when seated without creating a 200-250 Hz dip in response at the listening position.  If using the room corners, then you could simply set the SH50s on top of TH subs--such as a TH-SPUD, but this will be a bit high. Then time delay correction for the SH50 relative to TH subs will be required - something approaching 18 ms of delay on the SH50s. 

 

I don't recommend any direct radiating bass bins or subs to be paired with the Synergy Horn series, since virtually all commercially available units of this type have much higher amounts of AM distortion than good front-loaded horn bass bins.

Edited September 4, 2014 by Chris A

[Turbox]

i cant really add much value as i have not heard the Danley SH50s

[Decadent_Spectre]

Thank you for the thoughts, Chris.

[Vital]

The SH50 needs a bass bin that will go to at least 200 Hz. I'd actually recommend a Jubilee bass bin and not a TH subwoofer from Danley for the 31-200+ Hz band.  You could also use a MCM bin, but it is very, very wide.  Below 31-50 Hz (depending on which bass bin you use, with the Jubilee bass bin going lower), a TH sub from Danley would work very well, such as the DTS-10, or you could do a DIY Gjallarhorn or two.

 

 

Why do you say that? A lot of people are running the SH50 and I've never heard of anyone crossing over high like that with them. They are only down 10 dB at 37 Hz. Maybe you're confusing the Danley SH50 with the Danley SM60M which is down 10 dB at 170 Hz. Even so, here is an account of said speakers used with Epik Empire subs that show how a non-horn loaded sub sounds amazing with them. SM60M with Epik Empires.

[Chris A]

I've learned that there needs to be a fair amount of overlap between horns/drivers, otherwise the crossover bands don't sound very good due to phase issues (minimum phase) introduced by the drivers/horns in the crossover bands.

 

I didn't say to cross at 200 Hz.  More like 70-100 Hz, but you need more bandwidth out of the bass bin than just a few Hz higher than the crossover point.. 

 

And yes, I was recalling the SH-60, which as a wider horizontal coverage which is very desirable in home installations.  In fact, I actually recommend the SH-95 or 96 instead of the SH-50 for that reason.

 

Chris

Edited September 6, 2014 by Chris A

[LarryC]

Apart from the coverage patterns/responses I was more curious about subjective differences, particularly if anyone has done a side by side. Are there any particular voicings/flavors that may favor certain material?

 Those are also the kinds of thing I'd listen for.  Heritage Klipsch has long been my favorite kind of sound because it is so seamless and doesn't have differences in the character of the sound from one part of the tonal range to the next.  I was never enthusiastic about Altec systems with a direct driver bass and 800 or 500 Hz treble horn, because the sound field seemed to be so much bigger above the xover point than below it.  Klipsch Heritage seemed to avoid this kind of anomaly.

 

I have heard one or two systems with non-Klipsch mid-horns and had similar reactions.

 

I also didn't react positively to a Jubilee paste-together with a particular tube top end and another particular SS bottom end because the character of the repro differed between the two. 

 

And, I've occasionally mentioned in the past that, to my ear, the phenolic [correction] K55 driver didn't blend well with the dramatic transients from the Crites tweeter.

 

I don't know the technical causes of that and the other things I heard -- only freq response, polar responses, etc. -- but I wasn't real satisfied with the imperfect blend in each of those combinations.  IMO, those are some added things to listen for.

Edited September 7, 2014 by LarryC

[Chris A]

...here is an account of said speakers used with Epik Empire subs that show how a non-horn loaded sub sounds amazing with them. SM60M with Epik Empires.

I guess that the listener liked a lot of THD in his sub, or conversely, he wasn't using his sub as a sub but rather as a bass bin above 40 Hz (see the "Multi-Series Charts" tab, the first plot in the series:

 

http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=system&id=50&mset=48

 

Edited September 6, 2014 by Chris A

[Marvel]

And, I've occasionally mentioned in the past that, to my ear, the phenolic K-77 driver didn't blend well with the dramatic transients from the Crites tweeter.

Larry,

To be clear, are you meaning the K55 and CT125?

 

Bruce

[Chris A]

 

...here is an account of said speakers used with Epik Empire subs that show how a non-horn loaded sub sounds amazing with them. SM60M with Epik Empires.

I guess that the listener liked a lot of THD in his sub, or conversely, he wasn't using his sub as a sub but rather as a bass bin above 40 Hz (see the "Multi-Series Charts" tab, the first plot in the series:

 

http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=system&id=50&mset=48

 

Here are the equivalent (but higher output) series of THD curves for the Danley DTS-10 sub:

 

Edited September 7, 2014 by Chris A

[Vital]

 

...here is an account of said speakers used with Epik Empire subs that show how a non-horn loaded sub sounds amazing with them. SM60M with Epik Empires.

I guess that the listener liked a lot of THD in his sub

 

 

 

The Epik Empire actually reads better on the graph you posted than the Danley DTS-10 and is considered by many as one of the most musical subs out there. I was just curious why you thought the SH-50 or 60 needed so much help. Here is another example this time of Danley SH-50's with Epik Empires. Quite a few people are running SH-50/60 setups now and I have never heard of anyone needing a Jubilee bin or MCM, that is why I asked. From all accounts I can find, people say these systems are the among the best they have ever heard at any price with just the speakers and a sub. 

 

Back to the original question, Danley SH-50 vs Jubileee, that is very close to what I am interested in as well. Instead of the Jubilee however I am interested in the KPT-942 or KPT 942/4 and the SH-50 and SH-60. Those are the top four speakers on my list when I'm ready to upgrade. 

[Chris A]

...here is an account of said speakers used with Epik Empire subs that show how a non-horn loaded sub sounds amazing with them. SM60M with Epik Empires.

I guess that the listener liked a lot of THD in his sub

The Epik Empire actually reads better on the graph you posted than the Danley DTS-10...

 

Umm, not as a subwoofer (i.e., its infrasonic passband), it's considerably worse in harmonic distortion and will also measure much, much worse in terms of AM distortion which is much more objectionable.

 

I always wonder why there seems to be a confusion with bass bin vs. subwoofer when talking about home (consumer) systems...always look below 40 Hz, not above, when assessing subwoofer performance. 

 

EDIT: Above 40 Hz, you're really talking about bass bin performance.  I've found that you typically want to use a separate bass bin from subwoofer due to modulation distortion issues that propagate from the lowest octave and a half of audibility/sensation, i.e., about 15-40 Hz, which of course is directly related to the motion of the driver's cone.  This is the subwoofers' reason for existence: to isolate these issues in the lowest frequency drivers/horns so that generated distortion products will not propagate via modulation distortion to the more audible higher frequencies.

Edited September 7, 2014 by Chris A

[LarryC]

LarryC, on 06 Sept 2014 - 7:22 PM, said: And, I've occasionally mentioned in the past that, to my ear, the phenolic K-77 driver didn't blend well with the dramatic transients from the Crites tweeter. Larry, To be clear, are you meaning the K55 and CT125?  

Yes, my error, I meant the phenolic K55 with the CT125. Clearly many have a different opinion, preferring the CT125 with the K55. 

[Chris A]

See https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/123370-settings-for-tri-amping-an-82-belle-with-an-active-digital-crossover/?p=1749367 for a short discussion of driver and diaphragm types vs. timbre.

[Coytee]

Hoping someone can give their impressions on how the Jubilee/MCM systems would compare to Danley SH50s.

 

It's been long enough that I don't remember which Danley I actually heard heard (SH50/60??)

 

I went to hear the DTS-10's but they were not setup at the time

 

I thought the SH (50/60?) was very nice sounding but it left me wanting for more meat in the bottom end of the sound.  It was not a side by side with the Jubilee but I felt that the Jubilee offered fuller sound and if I recall, cost less once you factor in the (required in my opinion) bottom end for the Danley's.

 

I think the SH that I heard would HAVE to have some form of bass augmentation whereas, I merely 'want' my Jubilee's to have bass augmentation.  (wife won't yet give me green light to move my two DTS-10's into the room)

 

If you took a factory fresh Jubilee and put it next to a factory fresh SH50, I'd expect the Jubilee to get the nod.  Put it up against a SH50 and something additional to add some meat to the bottom and it would be more even.

[Chris A]

(wife won't yet give me green light to move my two DTS-10's into the room)

Bummer - even after that champion thread on hanging your subs from the ceiling?

 

I thought your idea was inventive and workable - and wouldn't significantly affect WAF if finished well with a ceiling skirt around the lifting/lowering tackle and gear.

 

C'est la guerre...

[Decadent_Spectre]

Nice to hear your thoughts Coytee, from the general idea that I have gathered from speaking to people privately and in this thread is that the SH50s and the Jubilee will go toe to toe and it becomes more of a question of preference, except for the bottom regions where the SH50s use what appears to be some TH/vented alignment whereas the Jubilee uses bass horns. Based on my own experience I would be especially inclined to agree with the comment about the bass bin as IMO nothing can ever replace a good FLH, it doesn't matter how many drivers or power one throws at it, direct radiating designs don't sound or feel like a good front loaded horn. So in that respect I think the Jubilee should be better but being a 2/3 way I do question how coherent it would be compared to the SH50 and if it would image as well.

 

I also especially agree with Chris that below 40Hz is best left to a "low bass" solution, the area tends to need displacement and my experiences align with his view that trying to get a single "sub" solution to cover all the way from 20-100/150Hz is just not a good idea.

 

Thanks to everyone for their thoughts.

Edited September 7, 2014 by Decadent_Spectre