RayCanales Posted July 29, 2002 Share Posted July 29, 2002 ooooh the unthinkable my Belles (1981) this Saturday night I noticed where not sounding up to their standard I lowered the volume and noticed that there was no Bass coming out of the cabinets 8( I didnt know whether to stop drinking my scotch or pour another even stronger one. I looked behind and maybe thought the cables had come lose from the back of the xover but no the k33 were in fact dead I opened the hatch at the bottom and tested them and there was no sound coming out of either one. any ideas what could have caused the sudden death of both of them I have a B&K REF 3220 Amp it drives the 2 Belles and 1 KLFC7 is the amp clipping possibly at loud levels? help ! I dont want this to happen again Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boa12 Posted July 29, 2002 Share Posted July 29, 2002 ray, that happened to me w/ both those woofs on my corns when my ole ken stereo receiver blew some capacitors while drivin 'em at very high volume. but the ken wouldn't click on after that. had to fix it AND put in 2 new woofs. sure you didn't blow something in the amp. or maybe about ready to? anyway, that's when i made the move to the new digital surround back in '00. ole ken now shares duty in the stereo back room. good luck. ------------------ My Home Systems Page Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDBRbuilder Posted July 29, 2002 Share Posted July 29, 2002 Belles are only rated at 105 watts RMS per channel...if you exceed that on a regular basis, don't blame the Belles for what happens...some people never match their power supplies to their speakers...bad idea not to do so!! ------------------ I can now receive private messages Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDBRbuilder Posted July 29, 2002 Share Posted July 29, 2002 Sorry bout the double post...this site is getting harder to deal with everyday!!! ------------------ I can now receive private messages This message has been edited by HDBRbuilder on 07-29-2002 at 06:27 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boa12 Posted July 29, 2002 Share Posted July 29, 2002 i don't know builder, the store rep when i got my corns in '84 said i could never blow 'em running them w/ "just" my big ken kr9600, 165WX2 dual power supply. & he was right in my case. i drove those corns many a time at full volume & the watt meters showing peaks of over 200WX2, which had to include some clipping. & for hours on end at some pretty wild bashes. only thing that ever took them out was above mishap. that's why i wondered about the amp. or maybe those old receivers/amps really are that clean compared to today's(?). ------------------ My Home Systems Page Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDBRbuilder Posted July 29, 2002 Share Posted July 29, 2002 rule number one...never believe a word that comes out of a salesman's mouth in his place of employment. rule number two...if a MANUFACTURER gives a stated MAXIMUM POWER INPUT RATING, pay attention to it!! There is no sense in risking damage to a speaker by having it hooked up to something that puts out more RMS power than the speaker is rated at!! When you decide to crank it up, you are throwing the warranty for the speaker out the window!! rule number three...today's stuff is generally not as UNLIKELY to clip at higher power levels as the HEAVIER-BUILT equipment of yesteryear...ESPECIALLY IFTHE OLDER EQUIPMENT had a MASSIVE TRANSFORMER, OR TWO inside it!! Sure today's stuff is cleaner sounding in many cases, but PICK IT UP!!! If it ain't heavy, then there is a damned good reason!!! ------------------ I can now receive private messages Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WMcD Posted July 29, 2002 Share Posted July 29, 2002 I had a similar problem. Blew an EV 15L in a homemake K-Horn using a vintage Sony amp. I don't know the power rating but it is probably less than 30 watts. Later I realized that the amp does odd things with infra sonics on Telarc CDs. A clicking noise. This was with a replacement Pyramid driver in place. I can not confirm that infrasonics killed it. This is just a guess. And I blame the amp. The mid and tweeter survived okay. So also think it was not a clipping problem. No, I think it is not the bass driver bottoming out. Another higher powered amp didn't do this. Is there any chance you had a similar recording? Gil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDBRbuilder Posted July 29, 2002 Share Posted July 29, 2002 Gil, I have to agree with you here...there are things that are on some of today's source material that older amps just weren't designed to have to put up with...and they sometimes clip-out when presented with this stuff. The woofer in a Belle is in a fairly-well-sealed chamber where its excursion is limited by the air in that chamber(either overpressure on its rearward excursion or underpressure in its forward excursion)...it is doubtful that bottoming-out of the woofer blew it!! ------------------ I can now receive private messages This message has been edited by HDBRbuilder on 07-29-2002 at 07:48 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnA Posted July 29, 2002 Share Posted July 29, 2002 In my own experience, Woofers are blown by overpower and tweeters are blown by clipping. Ray, Your K-33s can be rebuilt by Klipsch for about $75 each. Since they are bad, take them out and test them again to be sure. If they are still bad, but the cone out of one and see if the glue holding the voice coul onto the former softened and let the coils of wire slip out of place (or melt in two). John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RayCanales Posted July 29, 2002 Author Share Posted July 29, 2002 talked to klipsch today and I ordered 2 new K33 for 200.00 $100.00 ea good deal I also left a msg for the tech dept. to see what they thought would have killed the speaker. I think it was my stupidity I had the Bass all the way up on the Preamp (adcom GTP-830) and the Treble about 75% of the way I usually keep them both at 75% of the way on both when I use the KLF30 and they seem to survive just fine. I think that with the new SVS 25-31 Ultra + duals I will be fine. I hope I think that the Amp is a pretty good amp at least thats what B&K tells me. Im thinking about going over all my interconnects and speaker wire when I get the new K33s in. and changing the DVD Player too it sucks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lynnm Posted July 29, 2002 Share Posted July 29, 2002 quote: I had the Bass all the way up on the Preamp (adcom GTP-830) and the Treble about 75% of the way I usually keep them both at 75% of the way on both when I use the KLF30 and they seem to survive just fine. Get a ghetto blaster!! ------------------ It is meet to recall that the Great Green Heron rarely flies upside down in the moonlight - (Foo Ling ca.1900) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RayCanales Posted July 29, 2002 Author Share Posted July 29, 2002 Ghetto Blaster ? why ? what am I doing wrong? I love it loud LOUD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
killerbee_vr6 Posted July 29, 2002 Share Posted July 29, 2002 I blast my La Scalas to obscene levels almost daily, but I'd never ever ever use a tone control. Ack. That is what blew your woofers. If your speakers don't make bass, try fixing it the right way with room placement and subs. ------------------ Gabe '83 La Scala birch raw '93 Chorus II black '94 Forte II oak oil '93 kg3.2 oak oil KSW-15 Ksw-200 SW-8 This message has been edited by killerbee_vr6 on 07-29-2002 at 11:49 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boa12 Posted July 30, 2002 Share Posted July 30, 2002 ray, k-bee & gil speak words of wisdom. i'd keep it flat. eq/tone controls can be a real enemy to drivers. 75% bass gain & like the cannon on the telarc 1812 overture at high volume would probably pretty well simulate my blown capacitor episode. ------------------ My Home Systems Page This message has been edited by boa12 on 07-30-2002 at 01:25 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djk Posted July 30, 2002 Share Posted July 30, 2002 I'll bet you $0.05 that all that is wrong with the K33s is that they need the tinsel leads replaced. You can get that done at a local re-cone shop for $10~$15. Speakers are damaged by two things: 1)mechnical damage from too much low frequency excursion 2)thermal damage from too much average power. I have never seen a Klipsch K33E or K22E fail from thermal damage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDBRbuilder Posted July 30, 2002 Share Posted July 30, 2002 Ray, As a general rule of thumb, you should NEVER crank your tone controls HIGHER than "flat" which is dead center or mid-way or however yours are set-up!!...if you want to change the sound it produces, then adjust your tone controls DOWNWARD from "flat" until you get the desired sound mix of highs and lows...and just use the volume control to make up the difference in signal loss. Tone controls ARE NOT VOLUME BOOSTERS!!...and you risk damage to both the amplifier section AND the speakers by cranking the volume all the way up with the tone controls set to over "flat"!! Klipsch has protection circuitry for its tweeter in those speakers, but nothing to protect the woofer!! ------------------ I can now receive private messages Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Garrison Posted July 30, 2002 Share Posted July 30, 2002 Ray, If you were trying to get the Belles to produce bass by boosting the preamp bass control, that's quite possibly what blew the woofers. Belles and La Scalas have no bass. No amount of signal processing is going to create bass from a speaker that does not have the physical ability to produce bass. Below about 50 cycles, give or take a bit depending on room placement and size, the response from either Belle or La Scala drops percipitously. If you're playing something (hip hop, rap, electronic, organ, etc.) that has strong content in the lowest octave (say between 25 and 50 Hz) and you are not satisfied with the bass response of the Belle, the only solution is the one you've already made - get a good subwoofer. I think you'll be amazed at the difference the addition of the SVS subs is going to make. If you were boosting the deep bass by 15dB (quite possible if you had the bass control cranked all the way over) and you were playing the system at max volume level, you were pumping almost FORTY TIMES as much power into the woofers (assuming the amp was able to deliver full power at whatever volume level you were using) as you were putting into the midrange. No wonder the k33 gave up. Ray ------------------ Music is art Audio is engineering Ray's Music System Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDBRbuilder Posted July 30, 2002 Share Posted July 30, 2002 C'mon, Ray (Garrison)...that was pretty harsh!! Belles and LaScalas DO have bass, but it is not gonna reach as low as on many other Klipsch offerings just because the bass bin is not designed to produce it that low!! Both of these speakers were designed for other reasons than LOW-END bass reproduction. The LaScala was designed to be a one-man-portable fully horn-loaded stage speaker that didn't need a corner in which to function well...and was later adopted for center channel usage between two k-horns. The Belle was a DIRECT descendant from the LaScala's being adopted for center channel usage between two k-horns...and was PWK's attempt at beautification of the LaScala design. Neither of these speakers were actually designed to be ideal home left and right channel "bass monsters"...it is actually a tribute to their design that they have been so favorably added to home systems in such a manner!! Like you said, though...it you want lower bass, just add a good sub that is a good match for them!! Either way you look at it...rolling the bass control up past its "flat" point and cranking up the volume, is just asking for trouble!! Those k-33 woofers, for what they are, are pretty good units, but to pour gobs of power into them that exceeds their ratings is NOT healthy for them!! ------------------ I can now receive private messages Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike82 Posted July 30, 2002 Share Posted July 30, 2002 Given that both woofers went at the same time and you're using a s-s amp, I'd check that the B&K isn't leaking any DC into the output terminals. DC can damage voice coils to varying degrees. ------------------ Transport: CEC TL-2X DAC: Audiomat Maestro Pre-amp: Wyetech Jade Amps: Jeff Korneff 45 Interconects: Analysis Plus Solo Monocrystal Speaker cable: Analysis Plus Solo Monocrystal Power cords: CPCC Top Gun and Model 11 Line conditioner: CPCC Super Power Block Equip Stand: Grand Prix Audio Monaco Belle Klipsch, K-horns This message has been edited by Mike82 on 07-30-2002 at 11:41 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avman Posted July 30, 2002 Share Posted July 30, 2002 hey! another benefit of an added sub is if your pre-amp/receiver has bass management, you can roll the bass from the mains to the sub at 50Hz! this will allow the amps,belles and sub to do their job better. avman. ------------------ 1-pair klf 30's c-7 center (looking for 1-m.o.klf-20) ksps-6 surrounds RSW-15 sony strda-777ES receiver upgraded to v.2.02 including virtual matrix 6.1 sony playstation 2 sony dvpnc 650-v 5-disc dvd/cd/SACD changer dishnetwork model 6000 HD sat rcvr w/digital off-air tuner jvc s-vhs-et hi-fi stereo vcr sony kv36xbr450 high-definition 4:3 tv sharp xv-z1u lcd projector w/84" 4:3 sharp screen Bello'international Italian-made a/v furniture panamax max dbs+5 surge protector/power conditioner monster cable and nxg interconnects/12 gua.speaker wire Natuzzi red leather furniture set KLIPSCH-So Good It Hz! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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