Advice on surrounds and the importance of wattage ratings please.

[karelj]

Hello all, I am new to these forums and I am hoping that someone can clarify some issues for me.

First some background - My gf recently purchased two 'open box' Klipsch KF-28 speakers. She's had her eye on these for sometime so she was not going to pass this up. These are replacing the fronts for the included speakers for a Onkyo HTSP904 system that was upgraded with a TX-NR616 receiver.

 

I've always mentioned that speakers need to be timbre matched, so while we did not hear any glaring mismatch when we ran the Bridge of Khazad Dun sequence from Lord of The Rings and a couple of scenes from the Robocop remake (was it just me or was the LFE for that movie disappointing), we are planning on getting the KC-25 as soon as possible. Since the surrounds are mainly ambience, those are not a huge priority - but still on the table.

 

Here's where things get wacky. My gf is seriously debating getting the KB-15s to use as surrounds. Her argument is that they can be used as emergency fronts or pull double duty as stereo monitors for another system. What is partially driving her line of thinking is that the KS-14s are only rated to 50W RMS while the receiver is 100W per channel and there is some concern about what will happen when we watch movies near or at the receiver's reference level volume.

 

Are we worrying over nothing? Since these are surround speakers, is it correct to say that the amount of 'work' they will perform over the course of a movie is not at the level of the front three?

Also, would it be practical to, for example, have a center channel speaker that is only rated at 75W RMS being pushed by a 100W per channel receiver?

 

Thanks in advance. These are the only issues bugging us for now. We already got through the 'where to crossover' for the KF-28s (right around 35hz..might bump it up a bit)

 

[The History Kid]

First...welcome!

 

I have RS-42 II's that are rated at 75 RMS connected to a receiver that's rated 130 WPC.  Is this for 5.1 or 7.1 viewing?

 

If it's 5.1...I would still push the KS due to the bipole design.  If it's 7.1, using the KB series as the rear surrounds would be a suitable suggestion paired with KS side-surrounds.

Edited November 6, 2014 by IbizaFlame

[karelj]

Thank you.

Currently, this is for 5.1 viewing.

Would the difference in RMS rating be more of an issue for a center channel or front left/right??

[The History Kid]

I would think so, but there are others that would disagree.

 

Most of your dialogue and action is taking place up front, you're going to be driving those more than the rear.  If your receiver is 100 WPC and the speakers are 50 RMS, running at about half power would be sufficient (max the speakers out in the rear - but remember it's 50 RMS continuous, 200 watts peak.  A spike at 200 watts shouldn't be an issue).  If you're that worried about the KS-14's, you might look at an alternative in the Icon series.

 

Then there's the route that you could also try speakers in a different series.  Personally I prefer timbre matching, but there are some people who couldn't tell the difference.  That being the case, I think your closest match would be the new reference series.

Edited November 6, 2014 by IbizaFlame

[karelj]

I think for now I will try and convince her to focus on getting the center channel and then maybe upgrade to a klipsch subwoofer. The old speakers that came as part of the HTIB can continue to soldier on.

Maybe if we come across an open box sale for the KF-26s we can then use those as surrounds

In all seriousness, we will be keeping an eye out at Best Buy to see when they put this series on ultra clearance prices.

 

Thanks for your help.

[The History Kid]

I might inquire...

 

What cash are you dropping at Best Buy?  You might be able to score some much better speakers if you keep your eyes on Craigslist.  Some Reference II series setups have been going for well under a grand.

[Scrappydue]

Honestly the icon series are not made for reference volumes. I'd be careful no matter which speaker you choose. And like mentioned above, best but icon series plus tax equals some times the same or more than buying reference series which are much better speakers from somewhere like acoustic sound design or sound distributors. Not sure how long ago she bought them but maybe they could be returned of you could get a better deal on reference stuff. Like if she payed 750$ for them you can get rf-62ii from acoustic sound design for the same price free shipping. And I've owned both. Reference will trump the icon series. Especially up towards reference volumes.

If this may be an option try calling both places I mentioned on the phone to ask what the best prices they will do. It will blow your mind

Hands down worst thing about the icon series is the center. You have only one option, and it's just not a very good center compared to the reference centers. And the rc-62ii isn't much more for ALOT more performance.

Welcome to the forum also. Sorry for suggesting all this stuff so quickly and "putting down" your new speakers but almost all of us veterans on here have done the same as you and eventually upgrade. Doing that cost a lot so we try to catch new guys and help spend the money much more wisely from the beginning.

And also I'd steer clear from Klipsch on a sub unless you get an older rsw series one. Their new ones aren't as good of subs as what else is available out there. Look up a company like Svs, psa, and hsu subwoofers.

Read up and ask all the questions you want. We can steer you in the right direction.

[Youthman]

Welcome to the forums.

 

What is partially driving her line of thinking is that the KS-14s are only rated to 50W RMS while the receiver is 100W per channel and there is some concern about what will happen when we watch movies near or at the receiver's reference level volume.

I don't think you have to worry about any receiver driving those speakers.  For example, my LaScalas are rated at 100 watts continuous and I'm pushing them with a 200 x 7 continuous amp that weighs 115lbs.  My RS-62ii are rated at 150w continuous, again being fed with 200w of clean power.  I've hooked up RB-61's, RF-3ii's, and a ton of other smaller speakers to the Sherbourn and had absolutely no worries of blowing them.  My ears will give out way before the speakers will.  Besides...more than likely, with 5 speakers driven, your receiver is no longer pushing 100 watts continuous. 

[Jim]

I do have both sets you are speaking of on here and have had no issues with them. I am using a Yamaha RX A2020 receiver that is 140 watts per channel rated. I have the 28's as my mains (they are set at 60hz), I use a Synergy c-20 as my center (80 hz), and use 2 sets of KS 14's (set at 80 hz). 1 is for the side surround, and 1 is for the presence in the front. I have a 9.2 set up, so I also use KG 3.5's for my rear surrounds and actually have them on speaker stands for a higher sound field than ear height.I'm running 2 subs on this system and with the Yamaha,it doesn't let you drop down lower than the lower end of hz settiings on their YPAO, so they are at 60hz. I usually listen to my music and movies at higher volumes than the average person and I have no issues whatsoever. I listen to everything from Rock to Trance with thumping bass and have no issues with them handling the power if in 9 channel stereo mode. What I was told however by both Klipsch and Yamaha is that those 28's are severely underpowered by a receiver rated at 100 watts per channel as I had a smaller Yamaha receiver powering them. They both said the speaker being underpowered as much as that could affect the speaker and/or the unit as the unit will be working extremely hard to push those, so I did upgrade the unit with more wattage.

 

I am also a newbie here but being we do have somewhat the same set up I figured it may help.4 kids ages 13 (triplets) and 10 plus 2 dogs limit my buying power,so I also have looked for bargains. I got my 28's for $150.00 a piece from Best Buy, the c-20 was $99.00, and the 2 sets of 14's were $220.00 combined,so that was the only reason I purchased them.My thought process was a lower end Klipsch speaker is still better than a mid to upper end Sony or other large name company. Best Buy should be gearing up for their holiday sales, so they may have some open box items coming up. I also call other Best Buy stores while there to see if they have anything else that I could purchase and either pick up or have them drop it off at that store.

Edited November 6, 2014 by Jim

[karelj]

Thanks for all the responses.

 

@IbizaFlame, Scrappydue - They were open box, 169.00 each plus 6 month financing.

Don't worry, you are not "putting down" my speakers or hurting my feelings. You're telling me the facts based on cumulative years of experience.

 

The cost of those open box speakers are pretty much our operational budget. She would not have purchased them if they weren't open box/that price.

 

As much as we are digging them, we are both well aware that they are merely the entry level series of the high end club. For our current space and room arrangement, these are just fine for us.

 

JIm, your statement about the potential issues from an underpowered speaker concerns me, but the receiver was only purchased last year and we cant afford a new one with 'moar powah'. So fingers crossed and pray to Crom.

[Paducah Home Theater]

Here's where things get wacky. My gf is seriously debating getting the KB-15s to use as surrounds. Her argument is that they can be used as emergency fronts or pull double duty as stereo monitors for another system. What is partially driving her line of thinking is that the KS-14s are only rated to 50W RMS while the receiver is 100W per channel and there is some concern about what will happen when we watch movies near or at the receiver's reference level volume.

 

Are we worrying over nothing? Since these are surround speakers, is it correct to say that the amount of 'work' they will perform over the course of a movie is not at the level of the front three?

Also, would it be practical to, for example, have a center channel speaker that is only rated at 75W RMS being pushed by a 100W per channel receiver?

 

Typically receiver power is pretty exaggerated.  You send 50 watts to one of these and you wouldn't be able to stand being in the same room.  There are other reasons to go with larger surrounds but power matching with an amp in general probably isn't a huge concern if you cross them over high enough.  Yeah if you run the snot out of them they're going to distort though.  So will the bookshelves.  

Edited November 6, 2014 by MetropolisLakeOutfitters

[Paducah Home Theater]

I was told however by both Klipsch and Yamaha is that those 28's are severely underpowered by a receiver rated at 100 watts per channel as I had a smaller Yamaha receiver powering them. They both said the speaker being underpowered as much as that could affect the speaker and/or the unit as the unit will be working extremely hard to push those, so I did upgrade the unit with more wattage.

 

I guess I just need to throw away my Marantz 125W per channel receiver that's powering my RF7-ii's then.  

Edited November 6, 2014 by MetropolisLakeOutfitters

[Youthman]

I've rocked a pair of RF-83 with 55wpc and RF-7 with 60wpc with zero issues (and I like it loud)

[Paducah Home Theater]

Let's just assume that the specs on both the receiver and speakers are correct... 98 decibels is no joke, and supposedly it only takes 1 watt with one of these 28's to get to that point.  If that is true, at 64 watts they're cranking out 116 db, each.  Except when you double your speakers and power you get 6 more db, you're talking 122 db at 1 meter out of two of them, which is 17 db higher than the highest reference level peak.  

 

Everything I just said is pretty ridiculous BTW.    

 

In other words, don't make decisions based on exaggerated numbers.  For normal listening you're typically sending a fraction of a watt to your speakers.  The idea that a receiver will have to run extra hard to push high efficiency speakers because it can "only" crank out 100 watts per channel is kind of silly.  

Edited November 6, 2014 by MetropolisLakeOutfitters

[Paducah Home Theater]

As for the 28's, I've heard them in person, both the icon and reference.  They look pretty nice especially for what you paid and the woofers can keep up fine.  The biggest significant noticeable downgrade from reference ii without comparing side to side is the crossover and tweeter.  The II series has a better crossover plus a titanium tweeter instead of aluminum.  The end result is that the icons and reference (not "reference II") sounds harsher at loud volumes but on movies it isn't AS big of a deal, speech and glass breaking still sounded pretty nice.  Music is a different story, the woofers and tweeters don't blend together that well and makes all the higher frequency material constantly sound brighter than usual.  The Reference II line fixes this.  

 

But, if you are maxing out your budget at $338 a pair plus financing that, then just enjoy the snot out of them.  Like my dad always said, it only costs twice as much to fly first class.  

[The History Kid]

That's one of the biggest humps I've found that people need to get over in the audio world.  People see the numbers on the spec sheets and immediately make a Bee-line for the power output, disregarding the sensitivity and response of the speakers.  Trust me, you'll save yourself a lot of headache if you look at all three sets of numbers (wattage + sensitivity + response), instead of the one that the manufacture is boasting about (wattage).

[Jim]

As I stated I am a newbie, and am going by what I was told by both companies. My ignorance is due to not having a forum like this before I purchased my stuff, nor having been involved in the "click" to push in the right direction. Having stated this, whether or not it is true or whether or not it is not true for the speakers being driven by a lower watted receiver should be something a "newbie" would want to know about,and I would think the forum to which we joined would be the place to put that information.

 

 

 

I guess I just need to throw away my Marantz 125W per channel receiver that's powering my RF7-ii's then

The receiver I was talking about was pushing 90 watts, so for the 35 watts extra you have, it would still be "underpowered" as per Klipsch/Yamaha, but even if they are wrong, and I don't discount what you are saying, the 35 watts is going to help overall isn't it? If not why wouldn't they just make receivers push 50 watts a channel across the board? There is some positive for the power.

 

 

 

People see the numbers on the spec sheets and immediately make a Bee-line for the power output, disregarding the sensitivity and response of the speakers.

-Unfortunately we aren't all as informed as others on here and that's why we join these forums, to learn. However it seems that your response was the only one really addressing his question.

Edited November 6, 2014 by Jim

[Jim]

JIm, your statement about the potential issues from an underpowered speaker concerns me, but the receiver was only purchased last year and we cant afford a new one with 'moar powah'. So fingers crossed and pray to Crom.

 

As I am not as well hearsed as others on here,I have been calling the companies to which I have their products and asking advice,as well as doing the same on here. I chose to get the bigger receiver as I sold the other one on EBAY and then turned around and purchased something used/refurbished and purchased a square trade warranty. I am not saying you need to do this, nor  am I saying anyone is right or wrong. My point was to bring it to your attention, as I have same said speakers so you can do your research and make the decision yourself. 

 

From my ears they are going to be better suited for movies,and not music as much and having said that,someone else said same above. I also have a separate set in my living room and they sound night and day apart from each other with the clarity, so for now the 28's will be used more towards home theater.

Edited November 6, 2014 by Jim

[The History Kid]

 

 

People see the numbers on the spec sheets and immediately make a Bee-line for the power output, disregarding the sensitivity and response of the speakers.

-Unfortunately we aren't all as informed as others on here and that's why we join these forums, to learn. 

 

 

I think you misunderstood where I was coming from with that.

I meant that it's a hurdle that people have to overcome.  People get barraged wattage numbers all the time by manufacturers but nothing else.  I don't recall the last time I saw something advertised "x sensitivity!"  We've all been uninformed before.  It's part of the growing experience in the hobby.

[Jim]

I meant that it's a hurdle that people have to overcome.  People get barraged wattage numbers all the time by manufacturers but nothing else.  I don't recall the last time I saw something advertised "x sensitivity!"  We've all been uninformed before.  It's part of the growing experience in the hobby.

 

 

That's basically what I meant, wasn't attacking you.