Minimum room dimensions

[YK Thom]

After a many year abscence I have returned to home audio. Have put together a nice sounding system to get the ball rolling ( to my ears and budget). I have four rb 61 IIs with matching centre and sub. Always liked the Klipsch sound and do very much enjoy the modern models.

I am considering upgrading my front mains to P17-Bs for two channel weekend music or perhaps a pair of long wished for Heritage (KHorns or Lascala).

Concern is room size - I live in a high rise condo so realism is the order of the day. My gut tells me Palladiums are the way to go, but a thirty year itch for Heritage is still there.

What would be minimum size room requirements for these lines?

[Ceptorman]

Welcome YK Thom, Those P17s are awesome speakers. Lots of good info around here…PM sent

[Scrappydue]

Palladiums give darn good sound from a much smaller footprint! User etc upgraded from la scalas to the palladium which kind of pushed me to try them. Glad I did. They are awesome. Pm sent

[russ69]

In the future the Palladiums will be the Holy Grail and much sought after.

[Chris A]

...I am considering upgrading my front mains to P17-Bs for two channel weekend music or perhaps a pair of long wished for Heritage (KHorns or Lascala)...Concern is room size - I live in a high rise condo so realism is the order of the day. My gut tells me Palladiums are the way to go, but a thirty year itch for Heritage is still there...What would be minimum size room requirements for these lines?

 

Apparently few are willing to step up to the plate to answer these two questions...1) minimum room size for Khorns or La Scalas, and 2) minimum room size for Palladiums.  I'll take a swing but remember that there aren't many people that can quantitatively answer these questions with first-hand experience.

 

First, Khorn minimum room size--there are a couple of factors here that govern their performance in small rooms:

 

a) the ceiling height--which really needs to be about 8 feet (2.4 m) or higher in order to avoid early midrange reflections from the ceiling.  Canted ceilings are more difficult to deal with, unless they are very high - starting at 10 feet (3 m).  Carpet on the floor directly in front of the speaker is generally required, as is absorption around any object within 4-6 feet of the midrange horn mouth of this loudspeaker for best stereo imaging results.  (YMMV.)

 

"b) listening distance from the Khorns--probably 8 feet minimum distance from the front face of the loudspeaker to the listening position is the very edge of the performance envelope.  Again, YMMV.

 

c) width of the room--which needs to be wider than about 12 feet (3.7 m) in order to resolve midrange-bass bin and tweeter-midrange time misalignments.  Also note that there is a minimum distance from the Khorn's bass bin in order to hear its bass cleanly--avoiding having to listen in near field.  This distance is probably at least 8 feet from the front of the loudspeaker.

 

d) room depth--probably 12-15 feet is absolute minimum in order to avoid rear wall effects.  This minimum depth requires that your listening position will be at least 3 feet from the rear wall to avoid interactions of bass reinforcement/cancellations.

 

e) two good room corners or the use of false corners--Khorn bass requires room corners or the use of false corners for the bass bins (like PWK used in his house). 

 

The La Scala will have similar constraints but slightly different.  The bass-midrange time offset is about half that of the Khorn, but the midrange-tweeter time offset is the same of a Khorn (i.e., the same midrange and tweeters).  You can probably get away with 6 feet (1.8 m) minimum distance from your listening position, and less than 8 feet (2.4 m) ceiling height, but not very much less.  Width of the room can probably be less than 12 feet, but not by very much.

 

 

Palladiums have direct radiating woofers-lower midranges and horn-loaded upper midrange-tweeters, so the issue with these is smooth room boundaries closest to the loudspeakers and getting near field acoustic reflectors out of the way.  These loudspeakers are designed to be placed away from room corners and front/side walls, so you really need to have some room around these loudspeakers out on the floor - about 3 feet all the way around, minimum, for best stereo imaging performance.  Also, you will need some kind of subwoofer and bass management system in your preamp or receiver if you want to control bass modulation distortion to reasonable levels (i.e., because of their direct radiating woofers and generally the lack of room walls/corners to reinforce the bass).  I recommend keeping these loudspeakers slightly in front of any center electronics rack or flat screen monitor in order to reduce the effects of these early reflections as much as possible. 

 

Make sure that you toe-in all of the above loudspeaker types at your listening position (or even toed-in a bit further) for best stereo imaging performance.  If you find that you cannot toe them in to get good stereo imaging, then remove acoustically reflective objects from between the loudspeakers and along the side walls.  Place electronics racks away from the middle of the front wall, if you can. 

 

YMMV.  Hope some of this helps.

 

Chris

Edited March 24, 2015 by Chris A

[YK Thom]

In the future the Palladiums will be the Holy Grail and much sought after.

I think you are right.

[Scrappydue]

Well I just opened these p-17's and

Holy cow!!! They are phenomenal!

[geoffr]

After a many year abscence I have returned to home audio. Have put together a nice sounding system to get the ball rolling ( to my ears and budget). I have four rb 61 IIs with matching centre and sub. Always liked the Klipsch sound and do very much enjoy the modern models.

I am considering upgrading my front mains to P17-Bs for two channel weekend music or perhaps a pair of long wished for Heritage (KHorns or Lascala).

Concern is room size - I live in a high rise condo so realism is the order of the day. My gut tells me Palladiums are the way to go, but a thirty year itch for Heritage is still there.

What would be minimum size room requirements for these lines?

The neighbors will love you.

[YK Thom]

Thanks Chris A, some great information. I had a friend years ago who had the KHorns - magnificent - but they were in a very large room. With the information you have provided, it appears the Heritage products will not be the best fit for my needs and environment. This was my big concern.

It looks like I'll be making the Palladium plunge at some point this year.

[garyrc]

Thanks Chris A, some great information. I had a friend years ago who had the KHorns - magnificent - but they were in a very large room. With the information you have provided, it appears the Heritage products will not be the best fit for my needs and environment. This was my big concern.

It looks like I'll be making the Palladium plunge at some point this year.

 

Will you have one listener or several?  Before I moved them to a big room, I had Klipschorns in a room 9' x 11.33 feet (with a high ceiling).  For 1 listener right in the center, they were great!  With more than one, the imaging suffered.  They actually sounded good from down the hall in another room, but no stereo effect, of course.  Granted they are better for multiple listeners in out newer, big room.

 

I haven't heard Palladiums (Palladia?), but I worry about frequency modulation distortion in any direct radiator.

Edited March 25, 2015 by garyrc

[Chris A]

Gary, you may take the prize for smallest successful Khorn-room implementation. 

 

I have a pair of Khorn clones in an 11x12x8 feet study, in two corners, and I can tell you that I experience the same effect: one person listening is great if I am near the center of the room (slightly behind center) and not so good if more than one person is in the room with me.  There is a futon bed laid flat on the left wall, a desk on the right and a filing cabinet behind the listening position.  The corner horns actually wind up not taking any real useable space since they fit so nicely in the corners. They even hold vases and other pretty objects that seem to show up unannounced...

 

Hi-fi enthusiasts typically have got to want to overcome the hurdles of small rooms to achieve good stereo or multichannel listening.  Personally, I value  sound quality over small size.  Most people that I've met seem to want to reverse that. It's encouraging to me that Mr. Thom has asked these questions in order to get the best SQ.

 

As Salieri's character once said: "I revel in that sound that I alone seem to hear..." (Amadeus)