KLF-30 vs KLF-20 & amp recommendation?

[cleger]

Hi,

After a (fairly) long and difficult upgrade path, I happenned across a pair of KLF-20s. Took them home to demo, and was *loved* them. Went back to the dealer, and ordered a pair of KLF-30s. More is better, right?

Wrong. I really don't like them as much. I felt the bass was much tighter on the 20s. In both cases, they were driven by Onkyo TX-DS787. I should mention that where my question is concerned, I'm really only concerned with performance in 2-channel mode, playing CDs.

Anyhow, now that I think back, it makes sense that the smaller, 10" bass drivers would be faster... the 12" in the KLF-30s sound sloppier and "ooomy" to me. I had hoped bass response would be improved with the KLF-30s, but I feel the opposite is true, at least with my set-up.

Anyway, I'm wondering if upping the power will help. Granted, I know the horns are very efficent, but would the bass drivers benefit from some more/better power? The Onkyo receiver is rated at 100WPC, but it seems that alot of people tout the "damping" effect a good amp can provide, and I wonder if this would help me. People typically describe power amps as having "tightened" their bass, and I hope this applies here.

Unfortunately, I am not going to be able to return these... the dealer usually only stocks the 20s, and had to "special order" the 30s for me, and won't take them back. I feel like I may have screwed-up royally here. If there is no solution, I'm going to have to dump these on the market, and buy some KLF-20s (doh!) at a loss of several hundred dollars. Frankly, I wouldn't mind spending *more* money (like on a power amp, if it will help) but I'd hate to lose money going down to less expensive speakers.

Can anyone offer any insight? In case you think it might be that an amp would help, can anyone offer any tips'describe what you're using, etc?

Appreciate any advice anyone cares to offer.

Regards,

cleger

[T2K]

cleger, although I cannot guarantee you that a separate amp would improve the sound of your 30's,I would bet that one would.If I had your set-up I would chech E-Bay for a good buy in an Acurus 200X2 or preferably a 200X3 amplifier.Better yet,buy new.The specs on your 30's give power handling at 200 watts

maximum continuous,800 watts peak.My personal

belief is to drive the hell ouy of my Klipsch's.Improves imaging,tightens bass,blah

blah,blah.I personally use an Acurus to drive

the upper end of KSP300's.I'm considering a Denon 3801 and I tell you now I'll also use a

Acurus 125X5 or ATI amp for power.I'm tired of the pissy sound of AV recievers.My advice

to you is more power.Use the power wisely.

Keith

[jdm56]

Hi cleger,

Sorry to hear you're not happy with your new KLF-30s.

Personally, I don't buy into the "fast bass" deal. A pair of twelve inch drivers is not going to have to work as hard as a pair of tens to produce the same spl, all else being equal, due to their greater radiating area.

Which in no way means the KLF-20s should not sound subjectively better to you or anyone else. Just that there must be another reason besides the fast bass/slow bass argument, IMHO.

Perhaps it's just different frequency response of the woofer/cabinet designs of the two speakers. Maybe the driver cones would benefit with some additional damping? You might try doublestick taping some felt to the cones Dunlavy-style. Just make sure the tape's release is light enough so as not to mar the cone! I don't know, just a thought. I've read of people actually adding weight to the cones to damp them, too. That would be easy to overdo, I think, But some symetrically placed felt like the little circular pieces made to put under tablelamps might be worth a try.

Another easier option would be to experiment with restricting the vent tube. Try different materials with the goal of varying the degree of restriction. This could tame an underdamped bass.

And just in case you haven't tried it already, moving the speakers just a few inches out from room boundaries can have a profound effect. Maybe the '30s are just giving you too much of a good thing.

Good luck!

------------------

JDMcCall

[magnaman]

Having played guitar for a good #

OF YEARS, A 10 inch speaker will give you

allot more punch. and is much tighter.

The klf-30 is a great speaker instead

of taking a loss tone down the bass and

invest is a 15 inch sub.

[cleger]

Wow, Magnaman,

I'm the original poster above... and I'm from Fitchburg. Played professionally for quite a few years myself.

Always used 12s myself though. Twin Reverb.

[cleger]

*ahem* anyway, it sounds like so far:

1. Drive them harder (amp)

2. Damp them either by weighting/damping the drivers or blocking the port(s)

3. Should have stayed with the 10s.

All three seem reasonable (still wouldn't use 10s for guitar though!)

I think I'm going to try an amp. Hey, it's only money!

I really didn't expect to have this problem. Seems like pound-for-pound, the 30s should be better.

Of course these speaker evaluations are necessarily subjective, and I wonder how much of my problem is the time that elapsed (a couple days) between A/B-ing them.

I do think I'll try to go with what I have, for now. Talktokeith... I had another guy likewise recommend ATI today. I had been thinking Rotel. Care to elaborate a little more re: ATI amps? It's going to be difficult for me to demo one.

[cleger]

JD reminds me... maybe it's not too much of a good thing, maybe it's more of a bad thing... maybe my receiver just sends flappy bass, and I hear it better with the 12s...

Hmmm. I need to try a different power stage I think.

Anyone recommend any amp in particular withe these speakers, besides the already mentioned ATI & Acurus?

[rhawki]

OK, i'm probably gonna get flamed for this, but have you tried different speaker cables, or tried bi-wiring them? It could be like you said, and that's just how the receiver is, but i would try bi-wiring, and then trying diff. cables for the low freq to see if that helps... Although i've never used silver cable, supposedly it will tighten up bass, but it may also make it somewhat anemic.

-Rich

[T2K]

cleger, no experience with ATI amps.Just got literature a week or so ago and haven't had time to dig deeper.Several good reviews though.Like the seven(7) year warranty.As far

as the Acurus goes I've owned the 100X3 for 6+ years with no problems.Drove KG5.5's and KV2 center.Stacked bananas and front L/R channels drove 5.5's and TimeFrame 400's to 96 dbs at one third volume.Would be nice if you had a friend or local dealer that would loan you an amp.Check out E-Bay.Acurus 200X3

selling average $550.Look at www.mondialdesigns.com for info.Click Acurus.

Keith

[rowooo]

cleger......I feel one of the most important aspects of quick, tight bass response is having an amplifier that has complete authority/control over your speakers. Chances are your not going to get that with a lower to mid level a/v receiver. I would suggest going to your audio store and seeing if they would loan you a good SS amp in the 150/200 watts a channel range to see if thats the problem. I would be willing to bet it is. Mdeneen is also right about the placement issues. Also I wouldn't worry about speakers cables, now interconnects are a different story. A good pair of interconnects will almost always improve lower frequency response and overall sound. I couldn't believe the amount of tight, accurate bass my Epic's were able to produce once I changed all my cables to Transparent Audio cables. As for amps I've always had great luck with Adcom's two channel amps. Good luck.............

[cleger]

Thanks everyone for the replies.

I think I'm going to try a Rotel 991. Found an o.k. deal on a used one

Thanks again! I'll come back by here and let you know how I make out.

Regards.

[T2K]

cleger,you may get some valuable advice,or opinions,on what others on this BB have used

(amps)with Legends and how a particular amp may "color" the sound of your 30's.It would be worth the post.

Keith

[JCturboT]

Wow!It looks like central Massachusetts is the new local hot spot for Klipsch.What with cleger and myself from Fitchburg-magnaman from Gardner,and others from Harvard and Lancaster the Klipsch line is well represented here.

But anyway,cleger,if you wanted to hear your speakers on a good,clean SS amp I have a Yamaha M85 260 watt power amp.Its class A up to 30 watts and it really makes my Cornwalls shine.Drop me a line(I probably know you anyway)and maybe we can play them with my Cornwalls and listen to them both side by side.

Jeff

[magnaman]

Hey jcturbot+cleger

I grew up in fitchburg.lived there

most of my life. my parents are still on

lincoln st. I love how people are

talking about more watts for the

klf-20's I have only a 50 watt amp

and still shake my house till it hurts

someday I'll have a class a megawatt

amp.

[J M O N]

cleger,

Just to throw my suggestion in -- an amp will have a profound effect on the sound. I heard significant improvements on my Cornwalls when changing amps. If you are looking to keep the price down and are looking for SS, I would suggest that you consider buying a used Classe Seventy. You should be able to find one used for around $500 or so. Although I haven't tried it with a KLF speaker, it sounded great with my Cornwalls. This amp will sound better than an AV receiver. The bass wasn't as deep as some other amps, but the quality was definitely there -- nice and tight. That's my suggestion to consider.

[pzannucci]

cleger

Are the 30's even broken in????

You might want to wait a little bit before changing anything if they are new. Mine took several months to break in. Their bass characteristics will change after a couple of hundred hours of play. If they still don't sound right after that, some extra cabinet dampening will kill the tubbiness though it will slightly lower the boom in the bass.

By the way, most speakers with dual woofers causing typically a lower impedance in bass area, benefit from not being current starved. Again, wait until they are broken in before you try the amp route.

Peter Z.

[Ray Garrison]

cleger,

This may be a dumb question, but if you like the 20's better than the 30's, and you bought these from a dealer, why not just take the 30's back to the dealer for a refund and get the 20's instead? You seem to be well within the 30 day period that ANY dealer I've ever worked with would consider okay for this type of swap.

The 20's and 30's sound different. Whether the 30's are "better", or the 20's are "better", is completely subjective. You like what you like. Changing amps will probably have an effect on the sound, but it's not going to have a night and day difference. Likewise, changing cables or going to bi-wiring may have an effect, but not nearly as great as changing speakers. Room placement will affect the sound, and will probably affect the sound differently for 20's and 30's, meaning that the optimal placement for one may not be the optimal placement for the other, but you're still dealing with the basic fact that you like the sound of the 20's better.

So go get the 20's.

Ray

------------------

Music is art

Audio is engineering

[Mighty Favog]

For a room with hardwood floors, a party pit couch, drapes and set at the short wall I have found a good position for my 20's. 7" from the back wall and 14" from the side, tilted in 15-20 degrees. That was measured at the closest "point" to the wall The bass is great and like they said; they'll change with playing time. How, I don't know because mine are still pretty new. If you do go with a new amp, a friend who has repaired equipment for many years suggested a Rotel 60/wpc or so. They seem to be really quick amps (fast slew rate).

------------------

Tom

KLF-20 Mahogany

Carver Receiver MXR-150

Yamaha PF-800 Turntable/ Sure V15 Type V Cartridge

Carver TL-3100 CD

Yamaha K-1020 Cassette

dbx 1231 EQ

dbx 3bx Series Two

H.H. Scott 830z Analyzer

Monster Interlink 300 mk II

Original 12ga. Monster Cable

[cleger]

Well, I'm back.

I want to thank everyone for their replies.

After having let them play for a while, they *seem* to have broken in some. Bass has tightened up. Pretty stupid of me, I have to admit, but the KLF-20s I demoed were real demonstrators and as such had been played a bit, while the KLF-30s were new in the box. Should have occurred to me before I posted.

Also picked up a Rotel RB991, which is a 200W/ch stereo amp. Sounds pretty good.

So now, I think I may still need to do a bit of upgrading, electronics-wise, but I think I'll stick with the KLF-30s.I'm still not as taken by them as I was with the 20s, but I think given some more break-in time, and more time to get used to them, they'll be o.k.

Thanks agian to everyone.

[T2K]

cleger, listen to this.I recently bought seven KSP300's.Bought five from one dealer and about a month or so later bought another pair from another dealer.I had listened to the first speakers quite extensively prior to buying the last two.After getting the last

two speakers I placed them at the front of my room and had a pair of the earlier purchased speakers at the rear.Started a CD and the sound difference was like a kick in the ear.Took about one minute for me to decide that the problem was that the new fronts were not "broke in", as the rear two were demos and had played.I wish any doubting

Nillie's could sit in my living room right now and listen to the difference in the front

and rear pair running the same full range signal to all.The difference is readily apparent.Give those 30's time, they'll sound better and better and better.............

Keith