WMcD Posted August 12, 2002 Share Posted August 12, 2002 I'm starting a new thread on the "break in" issue. Please recall that in the past I'd made posts to the effect that I thought it was an unfounded theory without merit. Now, that has changed. Perhaps the theory overall started from the automobile industry. I've seen one manufacturer recommend low rpm for the first 500 miles or so. It may have had something to do with getting the rings seated properly. It does not seem to be common advice to the car buying public though. I've not seen it about raw drivers a hobbyist buys though. (But see below.) The posts here seem to follow the line that speaker salesmen tell buyers that the speakers will improve after some break in. My thought was the same as fellow correspondents here. There is a bit of well founded listening psychology. A new speaker may sound different, and then you get used to it, perhaps appreciating its merits, it does sound better regardless of whether there is any improvement in audio response. So, I thought, and still do, that the salesmen are making a pre-emptive strike on the buyer setting up the speakers at home, listening, and being disappointed, then bringing them back to the store. Further. I'd bought three Pyramid 15 inch drivers from Parts Express for the home made horn system. Dr. Bruce Edgar, in an article, had suggested that drivers should be tested to ensure the T/S parameters are what they claim to be. To my knowledge, Dr. Edgar has never taken a position on "break in". This was a quality control issue, probably. To honor Dr. Edgar, and QC, I used a Linear X LMS system to test parameters on all three drivers, right out of the box, and then again after break in over night. They were on spec. in all cases. Ha! This was hard evidence about break in. At least for these drivers. However, I've been reading "Testing Loudspeakers" by Joseph D'Appolito. He is a high power Ph.D. who wrote about crossover design, then invented the vertical Mid-Tweeter-Mid (M-T-M) geometry, and later published the aforementioned book. It is a masterful work on theory and his implementation of it using computer based loud speaker measuring systems. Therefore, he is a "hands on guy" too. Most of his work is too complex to discuss here. Read: I don't krock all of it either, yet. He says at section 2.6.1: "The suspension on a driver will loosen up with use, and therefore, its parameter will shift. In order to account for this, it is important that all drivers be broken-in before testing. This can be accomplished by suspending the driver in free air and driving it with a power amplifier at a frequecy in the 20-25 Hz range. The drive level should be set for moderate cone travel. Be careful not to overdrive the speaker or physical damage may result. Break in the driver for at least one hour. Longer periods may be needed. Some manufacturers specify their driver parameters after eight and even 24 hour break-in." I must assume the man knows of what he writes. And my break in was pretty much what he describes. So where does that leave us as far as (1) what to expect and (2) what to do?, and (3) what to make of my experience. He is talking about testing raw drivers. We're talking about whether things will change once out of the box from Hope, but pretty close. (1) My thought is that maybe manufacturers like Klipsch use drivers which are not broken in at the factory. So there could be some merit to the notion that after a period of use at home, parameters will shift to a target optium as anticipated by the designers. Maybe they do have better performance. Though I still believe the salemen are exploiting the theory to cover "buyer's remorse". (2) We still don't have any reason to believe the speakers will benefit in the long run by any specific source material or level to break them in. E.g. a progression of levels, or frequencies; much less, test CDs, versus Pink Floyd, versus grung, versus organ symphonies. To me, it seems that after a week of signal to the speaker, you've got what you've got, and there is no reason to worry about the source. (3) I was surprised that J. D'A. says manufacturers specify driver parameters after eight and even 24 hour break-in. I'd not seen that in any literature supplied to hobbyists, or otherwise. Maybe the stuff sold to Parts Express and the like are broken in; while the stuff sold to OEMs or made by them are not. Then home break in does the job. Now you know what I know. Gil This message has been edited by William F. Gil McDermott on 08-12-2002 at 10:19 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenratboy Posted August 12, 2002 Share Posted August 12, 2002 YEP!!! My stance has always been, after the first song you listen to, they are broken in. DONE! The test you did is 100%+++ science. Good work. That is CONCRETE. As Tom B. informed us of, JBL Pro says only an ~hour is needed to break in the 15" 2226x woofer. Fair enough. What pisses me off is people that think they need to run a speaker, amp, preamp, and speaker cable for HUNDREDS or even THOUSANDS of hours to get them going. That is total, unfounded BS. The eveidence from SPEAKER DESIGNERS is the defence, and a powerful one at that. Don't forget $250 CD's for breaking in cables, I kid you not. ------------------ Receiver: Sony STR-DE675 CD player: Sony CDP-CX300 Turntable: Technics SL-J3 with Audio-Technica TR485U Speakers: JBL HLS-610 Subwoofer: JBL 4648A-8 Sub amp: Parts Express 180 watt Center/surrounds: Teac 3-way bookshelfs Yes, it sucks, but better to come. KLIPSCH soon! My computer is better than my stereo! For JBL related subjects and more fun, click: http://www.audioheritage.org Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soundthought Posted August 12, 2002 Share Posted August 12, 2002 Hi Gil, How's it going? Intresting post. Very informative. My beliefs on this issue tend to swing like a pendulum. There always seems to be an arguement to the contrary. I try to remain open minded. Since, i've been reading conflicting views and research on this topic, I'm still inclined to "break in" my loudspeakers. It certainly can't hurt any. Can it? I was wondering what your opinion on cable "burn in." I realize that those less informed will responed with vigor, but I would like to know your take on the concept. ------------------ You should of heard just what I've seen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Garrison Posted August 12, 2002 Share Posted August 12, 2002 Well, I certainly seem to be in the minority here regarding whether a speaker's sound changes significantly during the first few that you use them. I think they do, but I guess it really doesn't matter. This is one point of differing opinion that would seem to be completely moot as far as impacting the sound of your system. Whether you think your speakers need "breaking in" or not, you're going to do it anyway, unless you bought them 'cause you think they make an interesting architectural statement and you never intend to play them. Ray ------------------ Music is art Audio is engineering Ray's Music System Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klipschguy Posted August 12, 2002 Share Posted August 12, 2002 What gives me pause, is people always say a speaker sounds "better" with time. I would give the break-in theory more credibility if I would occasionally read that the speakers sounded worse after a period of time. Seems like it could go either way. Many drivers have a pretty large +/- deviation from their published specs, i.e. two brand new K33's will probably spec out a little differently from each other and from their published specs. Also, if a woofer's suspension loosens up, it could detune a vented box, thus hurting bass performance. If I were to build speakers, I would run a low tone into the woofers for 24hrs, then make my cabinets for the EXACT parameters of my specific woofers - no manufacturer (I know of) does this. Most just use a big lot of same model woofers in their same size cabinets. Just some thoughts. I personally do believe the sound of a speaker changes to some degree with a break in period. I'm just not convinced it is ALWAYS for the better. Only my opinion, Andy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnA Posted August 12, 2002 Share Posted August 12, 2002 Hey Ray, have you seen the Avantgarde trios? Those are "an interesting architectural statement". I'd love to hear a pair. http://www.avantgarde-usa.com/images/greentrioroom14_sm.jpg I believe BobG once stated that Klipsch had measured some difference in sub drivers after some use. I believe woofers might have a "new shoe" syndrome and "break-in" with some use, since they move relatively slowly. Gil's testing would seem to put the lie to that theory, though. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenratboy Posted August 12, 2002 Share Posted August 12, 2002 Ray hit it spot on. After the fisrt CD (and I have stated this MANY times), all drivers will have done millions of cycles. ------------------ Receiver: Sony STR-DE675 CD player: Sony CDP-CX300 Turntable: Technics SL-J3 with Audio-Technica TR485U Speakers: JBL HLS-610 Subwoofer: JBL 4648A-8 Sub amp: Parts Express 180 watt Center/surrounds: Teac 3-way bookshelfs Yes, it sucks, but better to come. KLIPSCH soon! My computer is better than my stereo! For JBL related subjects and more fun, click: http://www.audioheritage.org Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WMcD Posted August 12, 2002 Author Share Posted August 12, 2002 I'm sure everyone can make the proper inferences from what I'm saying. It seems that some manufacturers and some testers report a difference after a break in period. Maybe the speaker assembler or the OEM has broken in yours, maybe not. Maybe they need it, maybe they don't. In any case, the break in period is probably as sort as an hour or a day. It becomes a moot point. My testing just showed those Pyramids didn't change. None the less, any "scientist" will tell you that it is difficult to prove that something never happens, based on a few examples. Tough to prove a negative. On the other hand, we have to use some common sense before we start saying, "ANYTHING is possible." First of all, there should be some well founded theory hinting it is. I can't see any reason to believe that wire can change over time given the home environment. Resistance is constant unless there is corrosion. Inductance is constant too because it relies on the current and magnetic field. Interconducter capacitance can't change either unless the spacing changes or the dielectric property of the insulation changes. Further, wire inductance, resistance, and capacitance are, over all, very, very small compared to similar properties in the speaker / crossover network. This is why wire doesn't matter much in the first place, and why zip cord works well. Also, before saying wire breaks in, someone has to come forward with some instrument based testing to support the theory. I haven't see that. This is all pretty well studied regarding wire. If you're pushing radio frequency signals through 20 year old wire, deterioration of the insulation will make a difference. But we're not talking about that. Gil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcolm Posted August 12, 2002 Share Posted August 12, 2002 Cool info, Gil! OK, with the exception of someone who is measuring speaker parameters, there is no reason to break in a speaker. And even that is probably not necessary if the speaker was shipped UPS. It is certainly possible for speaker parameters to change because of changes in surround or spider compliance, cone stiffness or mass, etc. Most of the significant changes are going to come later in life as the material deteriorates. A few may come early on. I can see coated fabric surrounds and spiders loosening up a bit early on. But I don't think butyl rubber or foam surrounds will. The point is that, even if a speaker does change some early on, breaking in a speaker does not buy the owner anything. It does not prolong the life of the speaker. It does not make it sound better. Any changes will occur just as surely under normal listening conditions as during break in, maybe even faster if the break in is done at reduced power. All one does by breaking in speakers is to throw away time one could have spent listening to them. So just enjoy the damn things and don't worry about breaking them in! The same thing goes for breaking in wire, assuming anything changes to start with. I think the only break in a typical woofer is going to see before it gets to the end user is the short functional test the woofer manufacturer gives it, and the short functional test the speaker manufacturer gives the completed unit. It is just a matter of economics. BTW one cannot prove that something never happens even with a large number of trials. It might happen if you do one more trial. If you flip a coin a million times and it always comes up heads, you have not proved that it will never come up tails. It might happen the next time you flip it. However, you can prove that something happens by a single trial. Of course, you will be forced to make it happen more than once to show yourself and skeptics that there was not something wrong with your experiment. Not to demean in anyway Gil's test or opinions, as far as the test results go, assuming the test methodology itself was valid to start with, the results apply only to the model speaker used. And the results from a sample of three are essentially statistically insignificant even for that model. This does not necessarily mean that the sample results do not apply to the entire population of woofers, just that there is insufficient information to prove it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenratboy Posted August 13, 2002 Share Posted August 13, 2002 HOW MUCH CHANGE?s> Hey, my voltage going into my house isn't exactly 117 volts, but can I SEE a difference? Nope- Just because a volt-ohm meter can register a change, it doesn't mean you will hear it! ------------------ Receiver: Sony STR-DE675 CD player: Sony CDP-CX300 Turntable: Technics SL-J3 with Audio-Technica TR485U Speakers: JBL HLS-610 Subwoofer: JBL 4648A-8 Sub amp: Parts Express 180 watt Center/surrounds: Teac 3-way bookshelfs Yes, it sucks, but better to come. KLIPSCH soon! My computer is better than my stereo! For JBL related subjects and more fun, click: http://www.audioheritage.org Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klipschguy Posted August 13, 2002 Share Posted August 13, 2002 Gil, What do you think would happen if you gathered a group of "golden ear" audiophiles and asked them to evaluate some very fine loudspeakers before and after break-in? The deal being that each pair of speakers tested were thoroughly broken-in with 500+ hours UNKNOWN to the testers. Do you think they would tend to say in thier write-ups "after many hours of critical listening, I cannot hear any difference before or after break-in" or do you think they would say "after break-in, the speakers began to settle down, the sound stage widened, and the highs became smoother..." (I know what Julian Hirsch would have said: "In conclusion, I must admit that out of all the pairs speakers I have tested, these are certainly one of them.") Regards, Andy This message has been edited by Klipschguy on 08-13-2002 at 07:12 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtkinney Posted August 13, 2002 Share Posted August 13, 2002 Malcolm brought up a good point about shipping. In the engineering business, we have to analyze for shipping loads. I don't remember the exact numbers, but dynamic loads vary greatly depending on how it is shipped; air ride truck, train, boat, pissed off UPS employee, etc. Except for the UPS employee, rail shipping is one of the worst for transient loads when starting or stopping the train because of all the slop in the couplers. This is called humping (really). So depending on how your speakers were shipped, they may need breaking in, or they mey need to be glued back together. ------------------ Jim Family Room: 1979 La Scalas (mains), SF-2 Center (pair), RS-3 Surrounds, RC-3 Rear Center, KSW-10 Subs (pair) Yamaha RX-V1 Reciever, Yamaha CDC-655 CD Player, Toshiba SD-1200 DVD, Toshiba TN50X81 50" HDTV Living Room: Yamaha RX-V590, 1978 Klipschorns Mainsc>s> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klewless Posted August 13, 2002 Share Posted August 13, 2002 Hey, I just gotta chime in on this one! My speaker break in usually follows something like ... 1812 Overture A few pipe organ favorites etc. Over the years I have had lots of new speakers and don't ever recall one sounding significantly better after 2 or 3 or even 8 months later. I do appreciate that things mechanical have a tendency to settle down after a while, perhaps more so than things electrical. I hear more change in my speakers from hi to low humidity than in any official break in period. Maybe I pay attention to the music too much and don't spend enough time listening to the system. Off the box now ------------------ John P St Paul, MN Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenratboy Posted August 13, 2002 Share Posted August 13, 2002 Klipschguy: You forgot to mention how the midrange purity will become greater and the fact the cables have also been broken in will help in transient bass responce after 500 hours of breaking in. Jeez, don't you know anything. ------------------ Receiver: Sony STR-DE675 CD player: Sony CDP-CX300 Turntable: Technics SL-J3 with Audio-Technica TR485U Speakers: JBL HLS-610 Subwoofer: JBL 4648A-8 Sub amp: Parts Express 180 watt Center/surrounds: Teac 3-way bookshelfs Yes, it sucks, but better to come. KLIPSCH soon! My computer is better than my stereo! For JBL related subjects and more fun, click: http://www.audioheritage.org Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klipschguy Posted August 14, 2002 Share Posted August 14, 2002 Lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sivert Posted August 14, 2002 Share Posted August 14, 2002 I got a new multisystem remote. At first the stereo's sound was slightly muddled. After a few days of channel surfing, however, this smoothed out entirely. I'm back to pure listening pleasure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenratboy Posted August 14, 2002 Share Posted August 14, 2002 Yeah, the IR can be tricky. What happens is that when the IR strays (hence the remote's available from Pure IR) and hits your cables, the electron configuration is upset, thus changing the calibration on the cable. This will render any and all cable break-in worthless. Your best option, if you don't want to buy the Pure IR remote control for $5,035, you should just control your system manually. Anyway, there are reports from Audiophile Journal that are saying that the electromagnetic fields emmited from the Pure IR remote control are interfearing with the laser in CD transports and any SET amps that are within 100 feet of the remote control. Your best bet is to stay away from remote controls altogether, your ears will thank you!!! Enjoy! ------------------ Receiver: Sony STR-DE675 CD player: Sony CDP-CX300 Turntable: Technics SL-J3 with Audio-Technica TR485U Speakers: JBL HLS-610 Subwoofer: JBL 4648A-8 Sub amp: Parts Express 180 watt Center/surrounds: Teac 3-way bookshelfs Yes, it sucks, but better to come. KLIPSCH soon! My computer is better than my stereo! For JBL related subjects and more fun, click: http://www.audioheritage.org Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vladi Posted August 14, 2002 Share Posted August 14, 2002 Theorem: One can never hear a non-broken-in speaker! Assumption: It has never been said how long does the break-in last, there fore lets assume it lasts N second. Also lets say that non-broken-in speaker has spec A, and it will be broken-in when it reaches spec B. Thesis: A speaker starts its transformation from spec A to spec B the very first moment when some signal is sent to it and it reaches state B at the and of N seconds. If a speaker is broken-in using 1KHz frequency signal, then at the and of N, it would have done 1000*N excursions. At any given moment of time from 0 to N, the current spec of the speaker is getting further from A, and is approaching B. Therefore, one can never experience a non-broken-in speaker, theoretically it is not possible to measure it, no matter how small the delta of time. Oh, and BTW, we cannot even assume that N is a constant, because we haven't considered factors like temperature, humidity, earth magnetism, etc. Vladi ------------------ Front: RF-3 II Center: RC-3 II Surround: 2 Quintets Subwoofer: RSW-10 Receiver: Sony STR-DA5ES TV: Sony Wega KV-36FV27 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WMcD Posted August 14, 2002 Author Share Posted August 14, 2002 VDD seems to be saying that we can't hear a non broken in speaker because driving it, for the purpose of listening, breaks it in. Well enough. I think that if this ever became a real issue, we could take measurements over time. There might well be a slope of the function which could be projected back to zero time, even if a zero time value is not measured. Also, in time, the curve would become asymtotic to an ultimate, settled value. The latter is mostly what is in issue. How long to settle down to a value which is so close to an ultimate value that it doesn't matter? From comments above, the time to an ultimate value is measured in hours, not days, or weeks, or months. VDD's comments imply that we can only have long term listening tests of broken in speakers. Which is okay by me! As a "thought experiment", if you have new Klipsch speakers and some music to listen to, which recordings would you like to hear sound better, and better? Smile. Gil Gil This message has been edited by William F. Gil McDermott on 08-14-2002 at 10:37 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cantilope Posted August 14, 2002 Share Posted August 14, 2002 About a year ago my KLF 30s aquired loose back boards. I contacted my dealer, and he had a brand new set delivered to my house (fantastic service). So I took advantage of having the new and old side by side, which brings me to my point. There was definately a differance in the tightness of the bass. The new woofers didn't quite have the same depth as the "broken in" ones. It was a complete side by side a/b test. Did the new ones sound bad, no, but there was a differance. I don't put a whole lot of stock in "burn in" times. But, I do think that the drivers did loosen up after a couple of days. As for interconnects and cables? Who knows. ------------------ KLF 30 (fronts) KLF C7 (center) KG 4.5 (rear) KSW 10" (rear sub) Sunfire Theater Grand II (pre-amp) Sunfire Cinema Grand (425Wx5) (amp) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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