Subwoofer - RSW12 vs Sunfire

[mrt]

I need some advice on purchasing a subwoofer. My choices are between the following three models Klipsch RSW12, Sunfire True Signature or Sunfire True Architectural Signature. I have the following Klipsch speakers RB5, RC3 and RS3. I am not interested in the SVS subs due their size. We listen to HT 75 % of the time and my listen area is 12 x 24. I have a Klipsch LF-10 sub which I will move to the rear. Whatever advice is given is appreciated.

[TheEAR]

HA

TheEAR shows up!

As the Sunfire and RSW owner I can and will say a few things here.

!WARNING! If you read any post pushing a water heater ignore the poster. As most of these posters push one sub fits all.

Now back to business

The RSW12 is fine if a solid 30Hz performance will satisfy you.Its tight,musical and well built.You should not look at wattage specs as they as in most cases tell very little.

Sunfire Signature VS Sunfire Architectural,easy to answer.The Signature is the obvious way to go unless you have to mount the sub in a wall or cabinet(as the active driver is located on the front).

Both will provide with solid 20Hz bass,the Signature(active/passive)will outperform the Architectural by a good 3-5dB(at 30Hz and below).

Since both are priced almost the same,get the Signature.

Now RSW12 VS Signature

HA HA and HA

Sunfire Signature takes the gold in HT use,a wide lead here.And performs great for music.If you want deep deep bas sthe Signature also makes the RSW12 and..even 15 sound lacking!

Simply put to beat a Signature you would need heavy hitter subs and they are ALL(all hear me all)much much larger(SVS lineup,Velodyne HGS15 and up,Revel B15,Aerial SW12,Wilson Watch Dog,REL Stentor and Studio)no way around it the Signature is a real subwoofer with power and deep bass capabilities in a cabinet so small its almost satanic magic.

Anyway compare them side by side you'll hear it.

In other words...the Sunfire Signature WHOOPS the RSW12 like a rented gov. mule.117dB at 31.5Hz from ONE 13" cube(ok TV it has bad a$$ woofer/radiator sticking an inch on each side,happy now ).

TheEAR(s) Now theears

[kenratboy]

How did I know TheEAR would be first in line... Sigh.

------------------

Receiver: Sony STR-DE675

CD player: Sony CDP-CX300

Turntable: Technics SL-J3 with Audio-Technica TR485U

Speakers: JBL HLS-610

Subwoofer: JBL 4648A-8

Sub amp: Parts Express 180 watt

Center/surrounds: Teac 3-way bookshelfs

Yes, it sucks, but better to come. KLIPSCH soon! My computer is better than my stereo!

For JBL related subjects and more fun, click: http://www.audioheritage.org

[Dustin B]

theEARS, I'm curious. How many subs have you owned and what were they?

[glennbarn]

Out of curiosity, approx., how much is Sunfire Signature sub ?

Cheers !

[Dustin B]

They list for $1900, but are selling for $1300-$1500.

[mrt]

Thanks for the advice. There is not a Sunfire dealer located in my area, so I have not had the opportunity to listen to one. I am going to order Sunfire Signature in the next few days. One of the few weaknesses that I have read about the Signature Sub, that it is so powerful it is hard to keep it in one place. The cost is around $1,400. I will let you know what I think of it when it arrives.

[TheEAR]

"theEARS, I'm curious. How many subs have you owned and what were they?"

Oh the answer is long as the subs I own and owned are many.

My first sub

Paradigm PS800(yeah the band pass one LOL,sold)

Paradigm PS1000(sold)

Paradigm PW2200 (first revision,sold)

Paradigm Servo15(sold,goes to the abyss and back)

Sunfire Junior(looks like a teeter but kicks too!)

Sunfire Mark II(my first introduction to tiny subs)

Sunfire Signature(mighty sub in a flea sized box)

Carver Knight Shadow(HGS10 like at half the price!)

Revel B15(first rate sub)

Aerial SW12(the king of the HILL,no question about it)

Velodyne HGS18(first rate sub)

Velodyne HGS10(sold,a few problems with amp)

Klipsch KSW12 and 15(may ge gone soon,too low end)

Klipsch RSW10(great PC sub!clean and defined)

and tested a few good many more,like the SVS Ultras...

all in all I tested over 100 subwoofers at home!And heard a few more.

Next stop SVS and REL

And just a note for MRT,the Signature will saty in place.It does not bounce on the floor like the forst versions.No worries there,it does however have true power...deep bass with serious output as a true subwoofer should have. Anyone who says otherwise has no idea what he/she is talking about.

TheEAR(s) Now theears

[Dustin B]

I see you mention the Aeriel SW12 as king of the hill no question. Is this in output as well as sound quality or just sound quality?

[TheEAR]

Bass quality and quantity.The Aerial has nothing to fear from the SVS Ultra.Solid to 16Hz it delivers where most fall and has very few peers in output down low.Defeats the Revel and HGS18 at 16Hz!Only the Mighty output monster SVS Ultra stands with the Aerial SW12.

Well the Wilson WatchDog and REL Studio III would alost rank as high in my view.Both the REL and the Wilson cost about twice as much,just to keep value in perspective!

TheEAR(s) NOw theears

[Dustin B]

So how did they get around port compression and noise at high output? You can only pump so much air through a 4" flared port. And with a 22hz tune things would get a little dicy down around 16hz at high output levels.

If you have access to the Rel Studio could you tell me how long and wide the port is? From the pictures I'm guessing it is a 6" port, which means given the Studio's dimensions, it will be tuned somewhere just under 30hz. That will hurt 20hz output big time.

[prodj101]

don't forget, you can get the RSW-12 for as low as 995. Where as the signature is 1,500 to 2 thou. It should outperfrom the RSW-12.should

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-Trevor

[jonesey]

get klipsch for good musical sound

[TheEAR]

"don't forget, you can get the RSW-12 for as low as 995. Where as the signature is 1,500 to 2 thou. It should outperfrom the RSW-12.should"

No really I did not know LOL

The Signature outperforms the RSW15 on deep deep bass.

The RSW12 is lunch for the Sunfire Signature.

Take even two RSW12's and play a 31.5 and 20Hz test tone.You'll see(err hear) what I want to say. LOL

And then compare to ONE Sunfire Signature.

The Signature compares well to heavy duty water heaters(above 20Hz).

TheEAR(s) Now theears

[Dustin B]

It's not hard to make a sub play extremely loudly at 31.5hz. It's the last octave that is the tough one.

And do you have any idea what the THD numbers on the Sunfire are at high output levels at 31.5hz and 20hz?

And no responses to my other questions above?

This message has been edited by Dustin B on 08-15-2002 at 11:26 PM

[TheEAR]

Dusty,

The 6" port on the Studio is tuned under 30Hz,I did not read the instructions or lift the sub to put my hand in the port to see how long the port is.

The sub has serious output at 16Hz and REL rates it -6dB at 9Hz.Tuning has to be very low,the cabinet is not the standard box most subs use as it uses their so called ARM loading.

The flared port on the Aerial does a very good job to keep port moise to a minimum,you would have to play 16Hz test tones at high SPL to complain about port noise on the SW12.

And even the triple ported SVS Ultra you will hear some port noise when you play the nasty 16Hz test tone volume pumped.Then again who in hell plays a 16Hz test tone most of the time at high SPL?

On even pipe orgam music you will not notice the port noise...unless you had a Klipsch LF10 and 12.

Even subs using passive radiators in the place of ports have mechanical noises(all of them).Sealed is still the best way to go,but you lose alot of output unless the box is large and driver fs very low.

THD is not low or very high on the Sunfire Signature

,its a sub and only servo conrolled subs(or mechanical...like the ServoDrive)subs have very low THD under 30Hz.The human ear can tolerate high THD levels in the sub sonic range.SO dont try and turn this into a low THD war,as the lowest THD and highest SPL(31.5,20 and 16Hz)are the domain of ServoDrive and WHISE subs.

I saw some THD figures for the Sunfires in a few mags,I dont remember them.WOuld have to find my older Audio,they always measure THD on subs.

TheEAR(s) Now theears

[Dustin B]

Yep, Tom has mentioned that he can get the three 3" flared ports in an Ultra to start to compress when pushed in the last octave. But three 3" ports have 40% more surface area then a single 4" port, which will help a lot. (Edit I guess I did the math wrong here, should have said "a single 4" port only has 60% of the cross sectional area of three 3" ports)

I've read reports of people demoing the Aerial SW12 with the DTS Haunting and a few other bass heavy DVDs. When getting close to reference they encountered port noise (bad port noise they described as a farting sound). The Aeriel SW12 is seriously underported. I'd bet in blind testing a single SVS Ultra would fair very well against an Aeriel SW12 (Ultra has very similar driver, similar power, more porting and a lower tune).

If you have access to a Rel StudioIII, humor me and measure the port diameter and length (oh and the length of the legs too). With that info I can quite accurately calculate what the sub is tuned too. I also highly doubt the two 10" drivers in this sub will be able to out displace a single Ultra driver. Granted it has more port surface area, but without the Vd and a tune that is too high, you get the idea.

I seem to remember reading the THD numbers on the Sunfire where up in the 30-50% range when pushed down low.

Servos prevent THD increase when pushed, ultimately by limiting output (and a lot of people really don't like what a servo does to the sound of a sub). There are some non servo subs that can play very low, very loud and keep the THD down. The SVS Ultra being one of them. The Paradigm PW2200 even has more clean (<10%THD) output capablity than a Servo15.

I would so like to get one of Adire's new Tumult drivers in a 6ft^3 enclosure tuned to 16hz with a pair of Stryke dual spider 18" passive radiators and a Crown K1 powering it measured by TN. I think some people would be just a bit surprised at the results.

This message has been edited by Dustin B on 08-16-2002 at 12:43 PM

[Manuel Delaflor]

quote:

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Originally posted by Dustin B:

The Aeriel SW12 is seriously underported. I'd bet in blind testing a single SVS Ultra would fair very well against an Aeriel SW12 (Ultra has very similar driver, similar power, more porting and a lower tune).

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Psst, don't tell that to theears, he will cry out loud. He guides himself by his "ears", so math is not the way to go.

On a serious note, that is interesting Dustin.

quote:

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Originally posted by Dustin B:

I seem to remember reading the THD numbers on the Sunfire where up in the 30-50% range when pushed down low.

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Yep, I also have read something like that. Perhaps this have to do with the small enclosure? Anyway, they do go to the lower octave, but apparently the harmonic distortion is high and this fool the ears (some ears) in to think that they are giving much higher SPL at some frequencies. Ears? what do you think about it? (being the expert here on Sunfire subs)

quote:

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Originally posted by Dustin B:

Servos prevent THD increase when pushed, ultimately by limiting output (and a lot of people really don't like what a servo does to the sound of a sub).

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Count me among those. As a fan of Klipsch speakers in particular, and Horn speakers in general, I run away as soon as I hear some form of compression, and the big servos, in my feeling, do compress a lot in order to keep distortion away.

quote:

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Originally posted by Dustin B:

I would so like to get one of Adire's new Tumult drivers in a 6ft^3 enclosure tuned to 16hz with a pair of Stryke dual spider 18" passive radiators and a Crown K1 powering it measured by TN. I think some people would be just a bit surprised at the results.

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Dustin, Im just finishing my Tempest proyect (I couldn't make the 260L monster, sorry!), its more like a 210L tuned to 20Hz (I will play a little with the tunning to make the most musical sub possible for my particular room).

What can I say? A M A Z I N G

I still need to fix a couple of leaks, and perhaps stuff it with polyfill, but the sound is nothing short of spectacular. I have listened to several subs (not like theears, but still some) and just the best ones (all more than 1500 bucks) can produce similar SPL's and quality bass as my Tempest.

Oh, and talking a bit about the distortion tests, I still doesn't have the right numbers, my Notebook suffer an accident and in my Desktop the RTA software Im using (Spectralab) have a BIG artifact at 60Hz (because of the current source) so the distortion tests give wrong numbers.

But just as sight I can tell you that at 20Hz measured at 1 meter the first harmonic is 30dB lower than the original frequency... NOT BAD AT ALL HUH???

Just because of this, I can really imagine about a TUMULT in a well designed box with big power... man, That Driver is nothing but SCARING.

This message has been edited by Manuel on 08-16-2002 at 07:32 AM

[Dustin B]

Manuel, how did you end up porting it. 2-3xFP3, 2xFP4 kits or 6" pvc?

[Manuel Delaflor]

6" PVC, was the easiest way, also, NOT PORT RESONANCE so far in my tests!!!

Thanks for the tip... by the way, thanks for ALL your suggestions and comments!

This message has been edited by Manuel on 08-16-2002 at 11:12 AM