willland Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 Thanks for posting that but don't see where it contradicted what I said. Sorry, I did not mean contradict your statement entirely. I didn't watch the video The video explains better than the article. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willland Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 My thing is good power can be cheap and of all the 28 or so amps I have owned(not including all the integrated amps), none have cost me over $575.00, which is about the price of a low midlevel AVR. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zen Traveler Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 My thing is good power can be cheap and of all the 28 or so amps I have owned(not including all the integrated amps), none have cost me over $575.00, which is about the price of a low midlevel AVR. Bill I'm not sure how to address this except to say if you had an AVR certified to drive 4 Ohm speakers that you paid less than $600 for (unless it was an Onkyo) then we aren't comparing apples to apples insofar as current is concerned. ...If so, which AVR doesn't match up to which amp are we comparing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gadgtfreek Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 Any AVR "certified" to drive 4 ohm speakers at that price range just limits rail voltage to protect the AVR. Onkyo and Denon both are guilty as charged. Here is the bigboy, the 5200 Denon, when set for 4 ohm by the selector switch, putting out 25watts/channel... Congratulations to Denon for making the world’s worst impedance selector switch of all time. With the low setting engaged, no matter how many channels were driven, the output was limited to about 25 watts/channel with one channel driven and significantly less with all channels driven (18 watts for seven channels driven). Denon jumped on the impedance switch bandwagon to get the UL 4 ohm rating, but severely choked off performance in doing so. This is likely due for two reasons, inadequate heat sink area to keep the receiver running cool enough for the rating, and an overzealous and cautious safety engineer that took things just a little too far. Regardless of whatever speaker impedance you have, under NO circumstance do I EVER recommend using the low impedance setting. Just leave it at the default 8 ohm setting and forget there is even an option to change it. Moral of the story, you will NOT get good 4 ohm performance from a cheap AVR. Joke is, the 5200 is not cheap. http://www.audioholics.com/av-receiver-reviews/denon-avr-x5200w/measurements Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ceptorman Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 For those interested here are a couple of threads posted on AVS: http://www.avsforum.com/forum/91-audio-theory-setup-chat/1532635-would-i-benefit-external-amp.html and http://www.avsforum.com/forum/91-audio-theory-setup-chat/2038306-how-do-companies-rate-speak.html Everybody knows that Zen Traveler guy is wacky!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gadgtfreek Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 I have never seen on person so obsessed with an AVR amp vs. a separate amp. It is borderline ridiculous, and the facts never absorb so the posting is on repeat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zen Traveler Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 (edited) For those interested here are a couple of threads posted on AVS: http://www.avsforum.com/forum/91-audio-theory-setup-chat/1532635-would-i-benefit-external-amp.html and http://www.avsforum.com/forum/91-audio-theory-setup-chat/2038306-how-do-companies-rate-speak.html Everybody knows that Zen Traveler guy is wacky!!! Only the Peanut gallery. Fwiw, those speaker designers and engineers that post over there are a great resource. Edited June 22, 2015 by tkdamerica Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zen Traveler Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 (edited) I have never seen on person so obsessed with an AVR amp vs. a separate amp. It is borderline ridiculous, and the facts never absorb so the posting is on repeat. Wait! This is a public forum and I think this post is way over the top! You have more posts in the last month than I on several forums and I am not saying anything derogatory about you. Also note I am a member here and at the AVS Forum and haven't engaged in personal attacks in 15 years. (Note: My last comment on this subject because we all know where this leads...} Edited June 22, 2015 by tkdamerica Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zen Traveler Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 (edited) I have never seen on person so obsessed with an AVR amp vs. a separate amp. It is borderline ridiculous, and the facts never absorb so the posting is on repeat. Btw, if you call it "borderline ridiculous" please engage at the AVS Forum on those linked thread--They do agree with what most here are saying, including me. Edited June 22, 2015 by tkdamerica Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ceptorman Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 For those interested here are a couple of threads posted on AVS: http://www.avsforum.com/forum/91-audio-theory-setup-chat/1532635-would-i-benefit-external-amp.html and http://www.avsforum.com/forum/91-audio-theory-setup-chat/2038306-how-do-companies-rate-speak.html Everybody knows that Zen Traveler guy is wacky!!! Only the Peanut gallery. Fwiw, those speaker designers and engineers that post over there are a great resource. I do like both sites, both have their positives. Lately the AVS site seems like a lot of people buying RF7lls, here there are more Heritage people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zen Traveler Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 (edited) I do like both sites, both have their positives. Lately the AVS site seems like a lot of people buying RF7lls, here there are more Heritage people. It's kinda ironic you say that given I know exactly who started that trend on AVS. Anyway, since then you can trace it back to Emotiva having a strong influence over there (which has since diminished considerably) and set the ball in motion that maked it seem everyone needs an external amp. Ironically it's only on the Klipsch Owners thread where you see that phenomena played out...Good people though who enjoy their speakers. Edited June 22, 2015 by tkdamerica Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scrappydue Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 Lately the AVS site seems like a lot of people buying RF7lls, here there are more Heritage people. they are all buying the wrong thing! cinema is where its at and everyone will figure it out one day. reference all day on a couple watts from my avr: 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zen Traveler Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 (edited) Any AVR "certified" to drive 4 ohm speakers at that price range just limits rail voltage to protect the AVR. Onkyo and Denon both are guilty as charged. Here is the bigboy, the 5200 Denon, when set for 4 ohm by the selector switch, putting out 25watts/channel... I had time to look at your link and that is not the "bigboy" and I would be interested to see what the Denon X7200 could do. I also encourage you to look at the Benchmark test of the AVR-4806 that used to run my system (now it is being used in a 1600 sq ft w/o room in a multichannel configuration) prior to the Denon AVR-4811ci that's running it now: http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_12_4/denon-avr-4806-receiver-12-2005-part-5.html I will agree with you on Onkyo's upper end units because I was surprised to see they didn't compare with the Denon above. (EDIT: If one was handy with the search function and was truly obsessed they could follow my journey discovering that on AVSForum. } Edited June 22, 2015 by tkdamerica Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zen Traveler Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 (edited) Lately the AVS site seems like a lot of people buying RF7lls, here there are more Heritage people.they are all buying the wrong thing! cinema is where its at and everyone will figure it out one day. reference all day on a couple watts from my avr: No doubt! Either that or Lascalas for me, if I had the room. Edited June 22, 2015 by tkdamerica Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coleman Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 Lately the AVS site seems like a lot of people buying RF7lls, here there are more Heritage people.they are all buying the wrong thing! cinema is where its at and everyone will figure it out one day. reference all day on a couple watts from my avr: That video reminds me of the demo Ryan gave me of his system the day I picked up my 7II's. Those 904's are just simply awesome. When I have a dedicated room that is the exact direction I will be going. Three 904's up front and call it a day. Thanks for sharing that video Steven. 121 db's peak? Aww on just a little ole Denon 4520. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scrappydue Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 That video reminds me of the demo Ryan gave me of his system the day I picked up my 7II's. Those 904's are just simply awesome. When I have a dedicated room that is the exact direction I will be going. Three 904's up front and call it a day yeah id like to make it up to his place one day just to hear them in a different room than my own. maybe you and i will have new places around the same time and i will probably have mine up for sale. 121 db's peak? Aww on just a little ole Denon 4520. easy breezy for them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willland Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 (edited) My thing is good power can be cheap and of all the 28 or so amps I have owned(not including all the integrated amps), none have cost me over $575.00, which is about the price of a low midlevel AVR. Bill I'm not sure how to address this except to say if you had an AVR certified to drive 4 Ohm speakers that you paid less than $600 for (unless it was an Onkyo) then we aren't comparing apples to apples insofar as current is concerned. ...If so, which AVR doesn't match up to which amp are we comparing? I guess I just don't understand. My flagship NAD T773 receiver(stereo duty in guest bedroom now) with twin toroidal transformers is a beast(52.8 pounds) and is 4ohm certified and could drive my RF-63 system at medium to medium loud levels. With that said, in my almost 6000ft>3 room, it was nowhere as dynamic as it was when I added my Acurus 200w/ch amps. Like I said before, there are too many unknown variables to make a concrete statement that a 4ohm certified AVR will sound as good as seperates or an AVR plus amp/amps. Bill Edited June 22, 2015 by willland Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zen Traveler Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 Of course there are variables and a larger room as you suggest would definitely be where an external amp could be beneficial. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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