Acoustic treatment question/advice

[MercedesBerater]

I thought this should be a new thread... Instead of attaching to my theater build thread:

I will be ordering acoustic panels in the next 6 months hopefully (yes I try and plan far ahead since the whole room is DIY) my side walls will have 60sq/ft of treatment each. With my remaining 80-100sq/ft recommended amount going on the rear wall, front wall, and possibly ceiling.

See quick sketch for idea of entry wall for rough idea.

My question is this.

If my side and rear walls are appropriately treated for reflection points.. That leaves the ceiling first reflection untreated. Since I'm in a basement and my ceiling height is 8feet- would you leave the ceiling NOT treated to retain some echo and sense of spaciousness -- or would you treat ALL first reflection points on side walls AND ceiling. (Floor is all carpeted so that handles as best as possible floor reflection point)

Thoughts?

Edited December 22, 2015 by MercedesBerater

[Paducah Home Theater]

Everything I've ever read says that if you have horns that limit the vertical dispersion, ceiling treatment is not necessary. If you have soft domes that are spraying treble in all directions, that may be a different story.

I am wondering how these new 90x90 horns are going to work out in that regard. Most horns have less vertical dispersion than that.

Edited December 22, 2015 by MetropolisLakeOutfitters

[MercedesBerater]

So stick with my side & back walls then?

Good... Cuz I could not for the life of me figure out a pleasant pattern for acoustic panels on the ceiling to work around my atmos ceiling speakers & hvac vent & lights...

Perfect!

What are the thoughts here on "over-absorption" some professionals say keep it live sounding, and some like Dennis Erksine say you can't have enough absorption.

Does my quick sketch look like "too much"

My coverage will be :

Walls 574 sq/ft With 200 sq/ft of coverage at 2" thick SoundSuede by Acoustical Solutions

Ceiling 400 sq/ft with 0 sq/ft of coverage

Floor 400 sq/ft with 400 sq/ft of carpet

My rear riser will have an attempt at massive broadband absorption with large 'trench drain grills' around the perimeter to allow airflow for room boundary pressure to hopefully reduce some bass modes.

[Paducah Home Theater]

Does my quick sketch look like "too much"

My coverage will be :

Walls 574 sq/ft With 200 sq/ft of coverage at 2" thick SoundSuede by Acoustical Solutions

I think that's going to start getting expensive real quick if you're buying pre-made panels. You can get the insulation for panels for like $10 each plus shipping for a 2"x2'x4' and can get fabric that will work fine for half that or less. Their pre-made panels start at $116 each and the fabric alone is nearly $30 a yard. It's nearly $100 per panel extra as opposed to DIY even with nice materials, and you have a lot of panels.

Edited December 22, 2015 by MetropolisLakeOutfitters

[MercedesBerater]

Yes.... Both left / right walls will cost me around $2,500 and an extra maybe $600 for the rear wall

However... The color in using is cordovan... Which goes perfectly with my wall color. AND the beveled edge will look very professional.

Since I've done everything myself and saved so much money on framing, drywall, electrical, etc.... I can afford to splurge on speakers, Amps, PJ, and acoustic treatments.

Especially since they will have the WOW factor and 'finish' the room, I don't want to skimp here and have the final touches be blatantly DIY

[Max2]

The panels work extremely well. Unless you are looking for the multiple panels look in vertical fashion, I think you may be a bit in overkill.  The fastening brackets aren't extremely accurate and the wood backing panels are so thin its easy to not get things exact, and yes being off even less than 1/4" shows. Multiple panel alignment is a pain or at least is was for me.  You may consider doing longer  panels for the walls and you can space them a full 12" apart.  I would hit front, sides, rear and ceiling for sure.  Its crazy what it does to a room. Total silence, but the new silence allows you to hear everything going on in your house when the music isn't playing.  Its one of the best improvements I've made to my room and your music will be new with details, passages, hidden background vocals and instruments, etc.etc.  If I knew how big of an improvement it would make, I would have bought panels 20 years ago.  

 

I shopped a lot of the mainstream panels outfits and found for price and the fake micro suede I wanted, Acoustimac gave me the best deal.

 

 

 

[Paducah Home Theater]

Yes.... Both left / right walls will cost me around $2,500 and an extra maybe $600 for the rear wall

$3,100 for acoustic panels is most likely a really bad investment. I would rethink this.

 

However... The color in using is cordovan... Which goes perfectly with my wall color. AND the beveled edge will look very professional.

That's just like a burgundy-ish brown. Should be able to find a similar color elsewhere but even if you can't, the fabric alone is still way cheaper than buying the whole panels.

 

Since I've done everything myself and saved so much money on framing, drywall, electrical, etc.... I can afford to splurge on speakers, Amps, PJ, and acoustic treatments.

Especially since they will have the WOW factor and 'finish' the room, I don't want to skimp here and have the final touches be blatantly DIY

I just don't think you'd be gaining much. The bevels without using a thick wooden frame, maybe. Otherwise these things are easy to build. It's insulation wrapped in fabric. Just not anything that's worthy of big bucks.

If it's the look you're after, maybe consider less panels. A few well placed taller panels will look much more stately than twelve different panels of three different sizes across the entire wall, which is what you've got going on right now, then double that on the other side. Any gains in appearances you get from the bevel will be more than offset by this.

Use the mirror technique to figure out where your first reflection points are and treat that instead of hitting the entire wall.

Edited December 22, 2015 by MetropolisLakeOutfitters

[MercedesBerater]

I was planning on the impaling clips & panel glue that's recommended for acoustic panel to wall.

(I'm not sure what the AcousticalSolutions panels are backed with, if anything)

What type of mounting did you use that was fussy to work with?

[MercedesBerater]

The color scheme that I fell in love with is pictured here.... And I think his panel placement looks awesome.

I'm trying to copy some of what he did in this room..

[Paducah Home Theater]

Also, if you truly want a professional result, start studying up on how to use REW and buy a calibrated microphone. A top notch design would be based on feedback from this.

[Paducah Home Theater]

What type of mounting did you use that was fussy to work with?

On the ones that hang on the wall I just built wooden frames because I wanted a tight stretch and didn't want to use glue. There's also no sagging over time with them. Some people say that no frames absorbs more but realistically its just a tiny amount, its actually been measured, you'd gain way more just by adding another panel.

My first reflection points is basically a window plug made of six rigid panels, two layers of three, and I'm in the process of building a symmetrical frame for the other side, I've just got panels laying up against the wall right now.

Edited December 22, 2015 by MetropolisLakeOutfitters

[MercedesBerater]

Any pictures of your work?

Isn't there some merit to commercially available and measured panels? Or should I really try and buy the fabric from that company for the exact color I want or try to source from a fabric store and attempt my own build? If DIY do you use rockwool or O.C703 or something more exotic?

Edited December 22, 2015 by MercedesBerater

[Max2]

I was planning on the impaling clips & panel glue that's recommended for acoustic panel to wall.

(I'm not sure what the AcousticalSolutions panels are backed with, if anything)

What type of mounting did you use that was fussy to work with?

 

 

I used steel tracks that attach at the top and bottom of the panel.  I had sloped walls which I had to use the bottom tracks too .  The backing is thin and once you have a track or whatever you're using attached you can apply pressure and adjust things just from stressing it a bit.  The cloth material and frames make things not 100% accurate like if you were hanging a picture.  Im a little OCD about some things and it bothered me having them off a bit even using a 4 foot level and a lazer.  You should be able to get a very good panel in the 2' X4' range for around $60.   You can over do it  price wise with some of the coverings that are out there.

 

 

No way in hell I would try and build my own, they're not that expensive

[Paducah Home Theater]

Any pictures of your work?

There's a pic or two around here somewhere, I'll try to find something.

Isn't there some merit to commercially available and measured panels?

Not that I can tell in terms of performance. I don't think you're going to gain anything significant.

Or should I really try and buy the fabric from that company for the exact color I want or try to source from a fabric store and attempt my own build? If DIY do you use rockwool or O.C703 or something more exotic?

I like Knauf because the lower frequencies have slightly better absorption plus they don't use formaldehyde, their manufacturing process is a little better for the environment.

[NBPK402]

Everything I've ever read says that if you have horns that limit the vertical dispersion, ceiling treatment is not necessary. If you have soft domes that are spraying treble in all directions, that may be a different story.

I am wondering how these new 90x90 horns are going to work out in that regard. Most horns have less vertical dispersion than that.

We treated first reflections on the side walls, and ceiling in our HT...all I know is it def sounds a lot better than it did before we treated the room.

[NBPK402]

So stick with my side & back walls then?

Good... Cuz I could not for the life of me figure out a pleasant pattern for acoustic panels on the ceiling to work around my atmos ceiling speakers & hvac vent & lights...

Perfect!

What are the thoughts here on "over-absorption" some professionals say keep it live sounding, and some like Dennis Erksine say you can't have enough absorption.

Does my quick sketch look like "too much"

My coverage will be :

Walls 574 sq/ft With 200 sq/ft of coverage at 2" thick SoundSuede by Acoustical Solutions

Ceiling 400 sq/ft with 0 sq/ft of coverage

Floor 400 sq/ft with 400 sq/ft of carpet

My rear riser will have an attempt at massive broadband absorption with large 'trench drain grills' around the perimeter to allow airflow for room boundary pressure to hopefully reduce some bass modes.

I was told 2" thick only effects the highs, and to go with 4" thick (which we did). We also made a bass trap out of the rear wall with 9" of Roxul Rockboard (covered in thin rubber sheeting (thanks to Mark Miner)). Behind the screen we did 2", and it seemed to make a difference on the sound stage clarity.

[MercedesBerater]

Any pictures of your work?

There's a pic or two around here somewhere, I'll try to find something.

Isn't there some merit to commercially available and measured panels?

Not that I can tell in terms of performance. I don't think you're going to gain anything significant.

Or should I really try and buy the fabric from that company for the exact color I want or try to source from a fabric store and attempt my own build? If DIY do you use rockwool or O.C703 or something more exotic?

I like Knauf because the lower frequencies have slightly better absorption plus they don't use formaldehyde, their manufacturing process is a little better for the environment.

Other than appearances / uniformity & time saved.

So ceiling treatments... So far has a 50% vote

And commercial panels... So far has a 50% vote

:/

Maybe I'll order ONE small panel and just see what's what.. And if I THINK I can match it pretty close in material & color & craftsmanship

[MercedesBerater]

I could do much thicker on the front and rear walls... But would probably keep to 2" on side walls for appearances sake.

What are thoughts on making the rear riser a broadband absorber.. That could be a 10foot x 13foot x 8" absorber! -- if enough pressure can get in through the perimeter vents. In addition to corner bass traps. Which are maybe 8-10" thick??

[NBPK402]

Yes.... Both left / right walls will cost me around $2,500 and an extra maybe $600 for the rear wall

However... The color in using is cordovan... Which goes perfectly with my wall color. AND the beveled edge will look very professional.

Since I've done everything myself and saved so much money on framing, drywall, electrical, etc.... I can afford to splurge on speakers, Amps, PJ, and acoustic treatments.

Especially since they will have the WOW factor and 'finish' the room, I don't want to skimp here and have the final touches be blatantly DIY

I would just order some 2'x4' Roxul Rockboard, and GOM to make your own. We have about $1k-$1500 into ours, but that is including 12 panels, bass traps, and front wall. When i did the ceiling i used Pine, but towards the end I found some redwood at Lowes that is about half the weight (bit more expensive though), and I would go that route for all the panels if i was to do it again.

[akdave]

So ceiling treatments... So far has a 50% vote
And commercial panels... So far has a 50% vote

:/
Maybe I'll order ONE small panel and just see what's what.. And if I THINK I can match it pretty close in material & color & craftsmanship

 

 

I feel your pain.  I'm watching this one closely as well.  Right now I'm saving my dimes thinking for my hassle, getting a bulk deal pre-made might be easier.  Shipping to Alaska is a killer for me so hopefully crazy shipping cost isn't as big an issue for you.  I'm excited to get this done as the consensus seems to be it makes a pretty dramatic difference.