prodj101 Posted August 26, 2002 Share Posted August 26, 2002 jeez, I would never think of buying any different speaker brand anymore. I was at the local hifi store, and listened to some 12,000 dollar B&W's, and me and my mom both preffered my SF-2's over them! I just didn't like them because they are much to nuetral and boring sounding. I find this to be the case with man "audiophile level" speakers. I think the designers try so hard to have a 100% neutral speaker, that it gets overdone and the music ends up sounding boring and lifeless. I have some RF-7's lined up for my major purchase at the end of this winter or next summer when I can have a job. works hard to find for a 14 year old! ------------------ -the forum prowler Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted August 26, 2002 Share Posted August 26, 2002 I cannot say I am surprised at your findings. I listened to a very high end setup based on the B&W Nautilus and found myself in a virtual coma within minutes totally unable to concentrate on the music. To date I have not found any other make of speaker that gives you that live feel quite like a Klipsch. That is not to say that I have not heard some excellent sounding systems based on other speakers (particuarly the Final 0.3's and the Quad 989's) but these are both systems I would enjoy ocasionally rather than on a daily basis. This is especially true for the Quads - they come across as technically perfect speakers that are very revealing but somewhat limited in their musicality IMHO. ------------------ My System: http://aca.gr/pop_maxg.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEAR Posted August 26, 2002 Share Posted August 26, 2002 Neutrality is the most important quality of any high quality speaker.I purchased my Dynaudio Contour and Spendor for neutrality. My Klipsch RF series were purchased because of the slam they bring to HT.Lets just say the R seies are not the most neutral speakers. If you did prefer the SF2 to the B&W Nautilus series then you have B0$e ears. TheEAR(s) Now theears Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted August 26, 2002 Share Posted August 26, 2002 "Neutrality is the most important quality of any high quality speaker" Disagree. The ability to convey the music in a manner pleasing to the listener's ear in conjunction with the rest of the supporting equipment and in sympathy with the listening environment is key - neutrality is for the anally retentive. Most venues for live music are far from neutral (more so than most recording studios). A speaker that gives recording studio tracks that live feel is what Klipsch is all about IMHO and all that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted August 26, 2002 Share Posted August 26, 2002 Max, I have to say this last post really illustrates how far you have come in this whole game... That was actually a very astute comment in many ways. Although I know what Earz is trying to say here, he is actually missing the overall point in my view. Nice distinction. I find a mixture of both to be important but without the involvment, all the neutality in the world, as well as top flight specs (which can mean very little for those that dont realize this yet), means zilch except to those using these as their guide over their own ears, something I find ironic considering Mr. Earz title. The man has some nice solid state gear but needs to toss his HIFI rags to the winds as well as his reliance on measurements to ultimately predict sonics. Still, colorations can be problematic when they are overarching.... which is what I think he was trying to say in his Earsian way... kh ------------------ Phono Linn Sondek LP-12 Valhalla / Linn Basic Plus / Sumiko Blue Point CD Player Rega Planet Preamp Cary Audio SLP-70 w/Phono Modified Amplifier Welborne Labs 2A3 Moondog Monoblocks Cable DIYCable Superlative / Twisted Cross Connect Speaker 1977 Klipsch Cornwall I w/Alnico & Type B Crossover Links system one online / alternate components / Asylum Listing f>s> This message has been edited by mobile homeless on 08-26-2002 at 10:08 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prodj101 Posted August 26, 2002 Author Share Posted August 26, 2002 how dare you insult my ears you dumbass ear, simply because I prefer SF-2's over B&W's. I hate the sound of flat boring speakers, also known as neutral. ------------------ Tha System Front- SF-2 Rear- SF-1 Center- SC-1 Receiver- Cheap Pioneer Amp for stereo Listening- Home-made tube amp 100 watt monoblocks second to top of the line sony SACD- Technics Turntable, Pioneer Turntable, Gemini Turntable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prodj101 Posted August 26, 2002 Author Share Posted August 26, 2002 Mackie are better than B&W anyway. ------------------ Tha System Front- SF-2 Rear- SF-1 Center- SC-1 RSW-15 for the sub Receiver- Cheap Pioneer Amp for stereo Listening- Home-made tube amp 100 watt monoblocks second to top of the line sony SACD- Technics Turntable, Pioneer Turntable, Gemini Turntable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike stehr Posted August 26, 2002 Share Posted August 26, 2002 Klipsch are better than both those. But Ear will debate, and that's just fine and great. 100 tube watts on a pair of RF-7's? What size room will this involve? I had a pair of Chorus II's rated at 101 db's at 1 watt. (This may not be accurate, I think it's the Klipsch rating.) With a gee, maybe, maybe a 5 watt max 6BQ5/EL-84 single ended RCA stereo tube amp. It worked, it was loud in a 14X12 room, but did not have the bottom end grunt necessary to get the ambience I wanted. Top end was quite nice, but this little amp just could not push those 15' woofers, I geuss. So you really do not need all those watts with speakers of these efficient sensitivity ratings, 98, 101, 104. There is a limit, as explained above. Unless you have a giant listening area, a 15, 20 watt stereo tube amp (or 2 mono's) on RF-7's should blast you just fine. Scrounge up another Eico HF-12 integrated mono amp, I gave you a link to the schematic. If you can get the one you have going, then find another. These little 12/15 watt Push pulls probably would sound pretty good on your current speakers. But heck, that 100 watt tube amp on RF-7's could be quite a adventure, wouldn't have to push it much. This message has been edited by mike stehr on 08-26-2002 at 08:49 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WMcD Posted August 26, 2002 Share Posted August 26, 2002 I don't quite get the theory of neutral speakers, or sound reproduction. The percussion part of any music is hardly neutral. If speakers make it sound neutral, they lack merit, in my view. Gil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted August 26, 2002 Share Posted August 26, 2002 The notion of neutrality is meaningless as it can't even be defined with regards to loudspeakers. Designers can't even agree on what a perfect loudspeaker should actually do, much less make one. Thus any notion of neutrality is only subjective. www.chicagohornspeakerclub.org This message has been edited by TBrennan on 08-26-2002 at 11:17 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCOOTERDOG Posted August 26, 2002 Share Posted August 26, 2002 A few words of wisdom from the dog. Remember, What goes in isn't always what comes out If you feed it crap it will reproduce crap If it sounds "Live,Dynamic and Lifelike" it must be a Klipsch...Heritage Speaker. ------------------ Denon AVR 3801 Onkyo M504 Power Amp driving the mains Technique A-10 DVD Audio/Video Player Pioneer DVL-909 Laserdisc/Dvd Player Dish Network Dolby Digital Sat receiver Mitsubishi 50" Screen Mitsubishi HSU-575 HiFi VCR Klipsch La Scala ( Mains) Klipsch RFC5 Center Klipsch RSS6 Surround Side Klipsch RSS .5 Back surround Klipsch KSW 12 Subwoofer Denon DRA-295 Stereo Receiver Driving Outdoor Speakers Boston Acoustics OutDoor Speakers My Home Theater Page http://www.geocities.com/scooterb4u/ScootersHT.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted August 27, 2002 Share Posted August 27, 2002 Mobile, Thank you for the compliments - I actually hesitated to make the post as I do have some sympathies for what Ears is trying to say. A friend of mine switched from KHorns to Quad 989's very much for the reasons Ears outlined. He feels the Quads are among the most neutral speakers in the world especially when driven with SS amplification. Funnily enough that is exactly the reason that I would use tube amplification with them (were they mine) - it is all a matter of personal preference. I should add that this is the guy that got me into audio in the first place. His tastes were very influential on my own for a very long period of time and it is only recently that our paths have diverged with him moving away from tubes/horns exactly as I move into them. Despite your positive comments I feel that I owe Ears an apology - it is not fair to label someone anally retentive just because they prize neutrality (and therefore presumably accuracy). Therfore - apologies Ears - I will refrain from labeling in the future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prodj101 Posted August 27, 2002 Author Share Posted August 27, 2002 my choice pair of speakers if you're going for something neutral is the Mackie HR824. This is truely a beautiful speaker, I considered buying a pair once actually, but I still prefer the sound of klipsch more. The whole "neutrality" thing is just kind of square and yuppy in my opinion. Besides, for the price of some of those speakers such as B&W and Quads, you might as well hire the band of your choice to play at a hall you rented, than hold a huge party and you'd not only end up making money, but you would be able to hear a live concert instead of recording. ------------------ Tha System Front- SF-2 Rear- SF-1 Center- SC-1 RSW-15 for the sub Receiver- Cheap Pioneer Amp for stereo Listening- Home-made tube amp 100 watt monoblocks second to top of the line sony SACD- Technics Turntable, Pioneer Turntable, Gemini Turntable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted August 27, 2002 Share Posted August 27, 2002 Actually Prodj I think the pricing depends very much on where you are. Here in Greece the Quad 989 sells for about half the money of a KHorn, or about the same as a pair of Belles. Of course that is still pretty rarified heights for some of us but they are certainly not in the lunatic fringe end of the market that many speakers seem to occupy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manuel Delaflor Posted August 27, 2002 Share Posted August 27, 2002 The very notion about "neutrality" is absurd. To "reproduce what was intended by the enginner", to have "a flat frequency response" and other ways to try to determine what is "neutral" are nothing but poor concepts that isolate a few parameters of the sound and then focus on them as if they were the only worthy think to achieve. So, if TheRears is happy thinking that his Contours are "more neutral speakers" it only shows one thing. How naive and credulous he is regarding the complexity of sound reproduction. He bought what SOME PEOPLE thinks about the subject, nothing else, nothing more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clipped and Shorn Posted August 27, 2002 Share Posted August 27, 2002 If I like it, it is good. I don't need no stinkin' specs. My good is better than your good. My good is the best. How's the weather? Let's talk. -C&S ------------------ Cornwalls currently upgrading to all tube components This message has been edited by Clipped and Shorn on 08-27-2002 at 10:59 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted August 27, 2002 Share Posted August 27, 2002 Hey Clipped, what are you doing wallowing in here? No reply to the Kinkade post? If I didnt know better, I would have thought you bought one of those priceless beauties to go in your listening room, right over the right Cornwall! Perhaps the ever so lovely "Hometown Pride" which is 100% USA "Proud to be an American - Support our Country" certified (ie, more dogma to fuel his pocketbook). Admit it! Kinkade is your man! heh... kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clipped and Shorn Posted August 27, 2002 Share Posted August 27, 2002 Thomas Kinkade, yes. I admire his $ucce$$. http://www.thomas-kinkade.com/ I did recently find myself in a local shopping mall, so I ventured in to one of his gallleries to test myself, to see if I could eavesdrop without saying anything too insulting or snide to the proprietor. This gallery was enormous and filled with very carefully lit pieces mostly priced at what Cornwalls go for and maybe a few at the price of Khorns. They mostly all utilize a simple but effective little painting gimmick regarding luminosity, a technique that Ross Bleckner has been using for years in a somewhat more creative manner. http://www.birdhouse.org/images/hsieh/bleckner.html http://www.rbleckner.com/main.htm Kinkade is definitely a phenomenon in that he took the idea of schlock painting to an unprecedented level of marketing hype. Did you know he even tried selling real estate developments in the image of his paintings. The guy has money to burn. I saw this on some news documentary made about him and his "followers", people that collect his work with a passion, the same way so many others collect radio sound bites as a short-cut to having what passes for a "belief system". Having no capacity to comprehend actual art, these folks embrace this shlock with a zealous revisionist vengence. At least Norman Rockwell was a great illustrator with real content, Kinkade is paint by numbers schlock pure and simple, but sentimentality sells big time in art as well as music. That it sells and many like the stuff is not what offends, but rather that it carries with it real anit-art reactionary baggage, just as the sound-bite crowd end up being so proud of their jail tight and dangerously closed minds. All American Junk food for the eyes. -C&S ------------------ Cornwalls currently upgrading to all tube components Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DANOCASTER Posted August 27, 2002 Share Posted August 27, 2002 who ?? you mean RUEBEN KINCADE?? Yeah. he WAS cool. But he never did get skunk smell out of the Partridge Family's outfits- even after they took baths in Tomato Juice !! But he still got to drive around in that bus !! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEAR Posted August 27, 2002 Share Posted August 27, 2002 Manuel Noriega, If you feel Dynaudio Contour 3.3's dont clearly outclass the RF-7's(I own both mind you,do you?)you have nor compared them and this said you have nothing of value to say.Like always And those who say neutral speakers are boring have a brick used as brain! And not any brick,the lowest quality mortar There is NOT one audiophile or casual listener that was not very impressed by the quality of the Contour 3.3,NOT ONE.From young to old,all agree the Contour 3.3 bring more music and less coloration. Now some love the RF-7's and many cannot stand them.Find the voices changed and the highs a bit agressive.Sure there is the awesome slam and punch the Dynaudio's can't even touch with a six foot stick.But overall 9/10 will prefer the Dynaudio's way.And most dont know Klipsch or Dynaudio,so yuppies are not in question here. I like mt RF-7's alot,if I did not I would not have as many R series Klipsch speakers.And also I enjoy my Dynes,for more delicate music demanding more detail and finesse. And pinnaple face Noriega who do you call naive?I see you take it personal,good.The room is the most important component of all,as the best speakers can soundplain bad in the wrong room and mere heapo speakers can sound quite ok in a room with great acoustics. And BTW Noriega linear is boring how about the Sennheiser HD600 with a proper headpone amp.Do you call this linearity boring too?You did not make any valid points,just rubish smack talk. Back to the drawing board 101, "how dare you insult my ears you dumbass ear, simply because I prefer SF-2's over B&W's. I hate the sound of flat boring speakers, also known as neutral." Your knowledge of speakers and sound sounds quite limited!You have no right to call anyone here dumb. Your moving description of the B&W Nautilus tells me you walked in the room got pissed because the sound was way to detailed and precision was there.You saw the sticker price and went berserk.Even credit failed LOL You know a BMW M5 costs more too,its not just the brand you buy,or hype. Why do you hate linear speakers?Ah I know you like the zig zag up and down of White Van and Co. speakers with Everest high bass and Grand Canyon deep midrange. As linear speakers are not tis linear after all,room effects and all.Unless you use electronic DSP's to compensate for room acoustics,you really dont have true linear speakers. "I hate the sound of flat boring speakers, also known as neutral." You hate quality spakers! You hate neutrality! Dont you hate your hearing? I would and ask Dan Dagostino to design Krell MRH hearing aids to help hearing,oh no I forgot they would be too linear...after a few 24dB boosts here and there to compensate for hearing freq.holes. I bet you dream at night about a fat ten band EQ with smile curves lit in the faceplate!Your choice,cant blame you its not your fault. TheEAR(s) Now theears This message has been edited by TheEAR on 08-28-2002 at 12:02 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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