mustang guy Posted March 3, 2016 Share Posted March 3, 2016 (edited) Never heard of 5.2.1 what is that? I really dont want to move the tv.. The way DR Horton builds these houses they "prewire" the tv to go above the fireplace like i have it so no wires are shown.. They even have electrical outlets prewired to that location behind the tv. My tv is a 55" Samsung 4k 9 series HDTV with the curved front panel. So glare is very minimal and every position gets a pretty good view http://www.dolby.com/us/en/guide/dolby-atmos-speaker-setup/5-1-2-setups.html Don't worry about my idea from out of nowhere. I was just trying to get you to spend a bunch of money. You room will be fine. Did you decide on surround type speakers to replace those Blose? Edited March 3, 2016 by mustang guy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wvu80 Posted March 3, 2016 Share Posted March 3, 2016 Ans sorry you keep bringing up the house price of $225K, is that a lot for the US? I misunderstood, even with the crazy exchange rate that kind of money wouldn't even get you into a small starter house here. It depends on where you live. In parts of California you couldn't buy a shack for that. Where I live in West Virginia you could get a mansion! With 10 acres! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toomnymods Posted March 3, 2016 Author Share Posted March 3, 2016 (edited) I think you are best sticking with a 5.1.2 in this room. It simply doesn't lend itself to having more speakers. I am going to depart completely from this current design and plant an idea in your head. If you put your TV on the right wall, you will have better seating arrangement, the TV will be down where it should be, you will have better stereo separation, the window light won't compete with the TV, you will be able to see the TV from the D/R table, and you will be able to add another chair if you want. I had a Installer come over today with 32 years of A/V experience and had a ton of suggestions and soon as I mentioned yours, He took it and ran off with it and didn't stop, lol I could see the excitement in his eyes. I guess In a way we all love big fun builds. I'm thinking this idea is more ideal for the type environment I have in my house.. I'm going to move my tv, and my stampeding bulls picture to over the fireplace. This will solve the majority of my problems within this room. It will also solve the how do I support my Klipsch RP-450CA center channel speaker on a 8.5" mantle and the center channel speaker is like 14.5" and would look really bad on the mantle IMO. So now I can put it onto my entertainment center below my tv and put the towers on each side firing directly at the main listening position. The main changes I'll be making will be I'll be moving the right & left rp-450s's to the appropriate locations one will be right in between the windows around the 5' mark and the other is pretty much inline with it already I'll just have to have the installer move down the speaker wire about 2' as right now it's about 7' in the air and too high. I've decided to add in two more rp450s's on the back wall also to get the full 7.1.4 atmos effect. This wall is around 10-12' behind the listening couch and should offer good rear fill I hope for the rear of the room. Lastly I'm going to install 2 ceiling speakers eventually to get the full atmos effect since my receiver supports 4 height speakers and these will be about 3' behind the main couch. The installer did find some problems with the install of my speaker wires that the contractor did from DR Horton. First they are only 16 gauge, not good at all for what I'm wanting for good quality sound, and safety. Second this wiring isn't even UL approved to be installed in-wall !! This really kinda ticks me off as I paid 700.00 to have surround sound prewired for my home and they basically thru cheap 10 cent a foot wire in there.. Well anyways all that has to be ripped out and started over. Would this wiring right here suffice? I'm wanting the best quality wire that has the most fine strand count possible for clarity.. Hopefully never have to upgrade wiring again.. http://www.knukonceptz.com/sp/kl3-kable-102-audiophile-cl3ul-in-wall-speaker-wire/ Lastly just how important is it for each speaker to have the same length speaker wire as the other one?? I keep getting conflicting views on this, some people say only match the front stage L/R/C speaker wire length... then match the sides.. then match the rears.. that way they are balanced. then some people say all speakers should have the same length wires. I just find it hard to buy 42-44' of speaker wire for the center channel and L & R speaker when they will not need even a 1/5th of that. Will the difference in sound even be noticeable? Edited March 3, 2016 by toomnymods Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scrappydue Posted March 3, 2016 Share Posted March 3, 2016 Some people say 2,000$ power cords make their subwoofer sound tighter and play deeper. It's all a bunch of placebo. The stuff from mono price that mustang showed you before is great wire. No need for any more. And as far as running the same length, any difference in a loss of voltage will be made up when gain matching via your room calibration. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toomnymods Posted March 3, 2016 Author Share Posted March 3, 2016 Thats kinda what I figured.. I thought whats the point of doing the microphone equalization thing?? I'm just going to buy 6-8' of 10 gauge wiring for the front channels and the rears will get whatever they need as well. I really didnt see the point in having a lot of wasted wire just bundled up behind the entertainment center just being wasted that couldve had the front channels reduced in DB to make up for the increase in resistance of the longer runs for the sides and rear channels.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoboKlipsch Posted March 3, 2016 Share Posted March 3, 2016 The little I've learned is that as the length of wire gets longer, a higher gauge reduces signal loss. There are nice reference charts for this and I'm sure the guy you are having help knows all that (I don't know s***, and I know it). I have never heard anybody suggest the lengths of wire need to be equal. The speed of transmission through the wire is so fast that I cannot even imagine there is much if any correction unless the lengths of wire become extremely long. You may be thinking of the distance of the speakers from the main seating position needing to be calibrated. That is different than equalizing the speaker wire length. An important consideration I think though is that even with wiring in-wall, there's always the chance you will change something or move something, especially the fronts. Someone else including your pro can talk to the idea of making sure there is a little extra wire in case something is changed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mustang guy Posted March 4, 2016 Share Posted March 4, 2016 (edited) Just get 14AWG like I said before. Don't get 10AWG, please! Also, the length of the wires is utterly irrelevant. The signal is moving at close to the speed of light. That's 186,000 miles every second. What would even 100' of extra speaker wire matter? Speaker distance from listener is a different story. Sound waves travel at the speed of sound. That's 1,125 feet fer second. In simpler terms, every foot farther a speaker is away delays it about a millisecond from reaching you. That is why you use the microphone setup. It adds delays for speakers and subs so the sound reaches you at the same time. It can make a huge difference. Edited March 4, 2016 by mustang guy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paducah Home Theater Posted March 11, 2016 Share Posted March 11, 2016 Ans sorry you keep bringing up the house price of $225K, is that a lot for the US? I misunderstood, even with the crazy exchange rate that kind of money wouldn't even get you into a small starter house here. It depends on where you live. In parts of California you couldn't buy a shack for that. Where I live in West Virginia you could get a mansion! With 10 acres! For the same amount that I've seen 0.10 acres with nothing on it and in a mediocre residential neighborhood go for in San Francisco, I built a new one story 2,500 square foot house with two septic tanks, 3 bathrooms, theater, all hardwood, lots of granite and marble, and sitting on 23 acres. Just depends on where you are. What sucks is that back 15 years ago, 225K was an insane house around here but nowadays it is fairly normal. I know cops with only one family income living in houses that almost cost that. Hell my Chinese barber lives in a house that costs that much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toomnymods Posted March 16, 2016 Author Share Posted March 16, 2016 (edited) Finally got most of my equipment temporarily installed. (Don't worry these speakerwires are going in-wall once I know what height works best..) Moved my tv to the flatwall, and the sound is nothing short of phenominal with these speakers compared to the bose trash I had before.. I haven't even used the room calibration setup up tool yet. Still want your guys opinions on mounting height for the rear surrounds and the side channels. Right now the bottom of the RP-250S's are 64" from the floor. And I'm 6' excactly I'm thinking they are a little high for atmos reasons and for watching movies, etc. Might be ok for listening to music. How far would you recommend I move these down to? heres some pics of how they are mounted now so you can see what they look like. I still haven't picked up the final set of the RP-250S's for the rear surround that will go behind the couch on the kitchen wall about 14' behind the couch. Also planning on adding a set of CDT-5800 ceiling speakers behind the couch for atmos. but these will probably be a few months down the road.. Also decided to move the sub forward in the room to the forward right corner and it sounds soo much more solid and precise. Edited March 16, 2016 by toomnymods Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derrickdj1 Posted March 16, 2016 Share Posted March 16, 2016 heres the shot of front facing rear.. plenty of room to put stuff into the ceiling if you guys think that is the best best for audio quality.. really hate to go backwards.. and tearing down walls or selling the house isn't a option, lol I never gave thought to using a sippy cup for beverages. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mustang guy Posted March 18, 2016 Share Posted March 18, 2016 (edited) I like the looks of that much better. If I were gonna spend extra money now it wouldn't be on more atmos speakers. I don't think you should even be using more speakers at all. You have room for a much bigger TV now. By the way, The mantle looks great now! I think you may need to buy a shorter pole for the ceiling fan so it doesn't obstruct the screen. You might be able to shorten the one on it. With the room configured with the TV where it is now, the right surround needed moved as you did. I wouldn't move the surrounds any lower. You don't want them in your ears. One other option would be to try the right rear under the countertop about where the metal dog is. As for the left surround, I think it might be better on the wall in my original picture than the window (see: http://i.imgur.com/HY0p0UO.png). Remember, these surrounds are designed disperse sound in all directions, so you don't have to aim them the same way you did the Bose cubes. Think ambient sound. If the speaker is in your ear it isn't going to be very ambient. You probably have the sub in the best place for your room. You get big gains on low frequencies when you corner load like that. Edited March 18, 2016 by mustang guy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoboKlipsch Posted March 18, 2016 Share Posted March 18, 2016 If you recall, I had PM'd you and sent a link to the Dolby Atmos installation guides. Here's an excerpt on height: "...If possible, the height of the rear speakers should be the same as the height of the front speakers. If the room design makes this impractical, or impossible, the rear speakers may be higher than the front speakers. However, we suggest that the height of the rear speakers not be more than 1.25 times the height of the front speakers." Height and placement are critical for Atmos...you have to do it "right" within guidelines to get the sound you're looking for (imo). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mustang guy Posted March 18, 2016 Share Posted March 18, 2016 If you recall, I had PM'd you and sent a link to the Dolby Atmos installation guides. Here's an excerpt on height: "...If possible, the height of the rear speakers should be the same as the height of the front speakers. If the room design makes this impractical, or impossible, the rear speakers may be higher than the front speakers. However, we suggest that the height of the rear speakers not be more than 1.25 times the height of the front speakers." Height and placement are critical for Atmos...you have to do it "right" within guidelines to get the sound you're looking for (imo). That lends itself to the under-the-counter surround for sure. Plus common sense tells you that having the speaker in your ear is more a headphone than a surround speaker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toomnymods Posted April 20, 2016 Author Share Posted April 20, 2016 I've finally all but finished my setup and it sounds amazing except for a few areas.. The way the sound is dispersed is nothing short of amazing while listening to music. It sounds as good as being in a recording studio in my home now. The trouble is when I play movies I really don't get the bold bullets flying by you, and all the special effects that should be passing from the left to right and front to rear surround channels. It just sounds like it's being "mushed all together" lol obviously I think I remember someone was telling me to use direct fire bookshelve speakers instead of my rp-250s's I bought for the rear and sides, so now I'm stuck with 1,600 bucks of speakers I really don't need. I'm probably going to go ahead and buy the largest bookshelf speakers this week and see if I can hear any better imaging. I cannot hear any type of transitions at all when gun fire shoots from a side to another or ricochets or any type of atmos stuff at all. I think all of this sound bouncing around all the time from all directions is probably canceling everything out. Now the main question I have now is how do you guys hang bookshelfs on the wall and have them sound good if they all have rear ports?? hate to go spend more money and still be left with disappointing movie surround sound. It plays plenty loud it just doesn't have any type of clarity of where the sound effects is coming from if that makes any sense at all? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mustang guy Posted April 20, 2016 Share Posted April 20, 2016 I wouldn't be too quick to get rid of those surrounds. Also, you can use floorstanding speakers as surround and rears. You don't have to use bookshelf type. As for other uses for surrounds, I bet they would be great for ambient music in places where you entertain. Kinda like souped up intercom music. All in mono, but much more dispersed. Even in stereo they would work, but the stereo separation would be more washed out. If I had a restaurant, I'd hang them on the walls and send mono to them. You get the idea... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paducah Home Theater Posted April 21, 2016 Share Posted April 21, 2016 (edited) when I play movies I really don't get the bold bullets flying by you, and all the special effects that should be passing from the left to right and front to rear surround channels. It just sounds like it's being "mushed all together" lol obviously I think I remember someone was telling me to use direct fire bookshelve speakers instead of my rp-250s's I bought for the rear and sides, so now I'm stuck with 1,600 bucks of speakers I really don't need. I cannot hear any type of transitions at all when gun fire shoots from a side to another or ricochets or any type of atmos stuff at all. I think all of this sound bouncing around all the time from all directions is probably canceling everything out. I've tried to tell people this and they just want to argue. The dispersed surrounds mounted behind you can do some weird stuff. Secondly, don't mix Atmos overhead speakers like you mentioned in the other thread, with half of it being ceiling and half being the upfiring stuff like you were explaining in another topic. Get four of the same kind. Edited April 21, 2016 by MetropolisLakeOutfitters Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toomnymods Posted April 21, 2016 Author Share Posted April 21, 2016 I cant put ceiling speakers in the middle of my living room, thiers too much stuff in the way in the attic( tons of ceiling joists and beams going 500 different directions as this is pretty much the center of the house and everything is braced here) That's why I went with the RP-280FA atmos towers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoboKlipsch Posted April 21, 2016 Share Posted April 21, 2016 If you are using autocalibration like Audyssey, it may be that the microphone was not positioned well. That happened to me a few times and muffled the sound. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoboKlipsch Posted April 21, 2016 Share Posted April 21, 2016 If not autocal u need to try other positions for the surrounds. They are not themselves the problem. Bshelves may sound more directional but the bipolars arent causing the muffle by their nature alone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toomnymods Posted April 21, 2016 Author Share Posted April 21, 2016 If you are using autocalibration like Audyssey, it may be that the microphone was not positioned well. That happened to me a few times and muffled the sound. I'm using the Yamaha autocalibration with their mic set up on the couch with the mic at the same height as my ear level. Although I do agree the right /left surrounds and rear surrounds are mounted too high as per atmos standards. I tried to tell the installer this but he bulldozed his way into pretty much stating I've been doing this 32 years I know what I'm doing crud.. So I'm Going to relocate the speakers down atleast a foot temporarily and see how that sounds, cause right now the bottom of the speakers is pretty much 6' off of the floor for all of the wall mounted speakers. I'm hoping and praying this helps as I'm tired of spending money on speakers and I'd like to start saving for a Samsung 85"or so 4k UHD tv. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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