RF-3 II with Crites Crossovers

[The History Kid]

Earlier this year I got into the idea of doing a few updates to some speakers of mine, particularly the Heresy's I have. Being overly satisfied with how the updates had sounded, I opted to tackle my RF-3 II's, since I had already established that they would be staying - no exceptions.

Mr. Crites was the man for the job on this one. I decommissioned my RF-3's in my room and sent him a crossover to examine, since up until this point he had not done any work with these particular models. In a week he sent me back a new pair of beauties that quite frankly really put the old ones to shame. Of course, it also added some weight to the speakers.

Where the old crossovers were mounted to the terminal cup, the new crossovers were mounted on the front of the speaker, with wires running back to the cup. This required the removal of some of the acoustic foam, since the cabinets were just stuffed full of the stuff. I sheared about 1" off each of the foam linings that laid on the floor leading to the rear port. I also ran the new wire from the new crossovers through the foam to each driver, whereas before they were left outside of the foam, free to rattle either against the cabinet board, the brace board, or the drivers themselves.

I also then inverted the terminal cups so that they aimed towards the ground, instead of towards the ceiling to allow for better concealment of the speaker wire. While my own modifications were EXTREMELY simple, and miniscule, the crossovers are what really provided a heaping dosage of awesome.

The next thing I will be doing to these is potentially updating the diaphragm in the horn. I had considered upgrading the K-1083 drivers to something else in the lineup, but I don't believe there's anything that will fit that will produce the same kind of sound the 1083 does.

So now my fellow Klipsch friends - what should I look at next for updates on these towers after the diaphragm?

[Deang]

The cheap iron core is of lesser quality than the steel laminate it replaced. Also, if the DCR isn't the same - the port/driver/cabinet alignment is wrong. I would consider this a downgrade.

The new resistor isn't any better than the one that replaced it - why bother.

The original air cores have high DCR values in the neighborhood of half an ohm. They are also in very close proximity to each other. This creates some mutual inductance, and the coil values are adjusted to compensate for this. Moving the air cores apart in combination with the larger gauge wire - changes the Q of the tweeter circuit.

Building on wood means a lot of extra wire, which increases insertion loss. The wire is partsexpress' cheapest offering. It turns green in less than a year.

You could have just replaced the 12uF and 5uF capacitors in series with the horn, along with a Mills resistor - and received just as good or better results. The ClarityCap ESA Series sound much better than Sonicap in these speakers.

Edited May 29, 2016 by Deang

[The History Kid]

Appreciate what you do, Dean, but my ears nor do the ears of others that have blind A/B tested the speakers between the original Xovers and the new would agree on the comment that they are a "downgrade."

[Marvel]

They are "different" and the tonal bance has changed. You hear the difference, but it might not really be better

[The History Kid]

They are "different" and the tonal bance has changed. You hear the difference, but it might not really be better

Didn't say they sounded "different" - by every account of each person that I had blind A/B these next to stock RF-3's, the response was that they were unanimously better. Side by side with the Heresy's, they may even be cleaner still.

[Deang]

I've shut down my business for a while - and I'm just finishing up a few things. I'm speaking as an audio hobbiest - I've got no horse in this race.

I didn't say the work was a downgrade - I was only speaking of the quality of the low pass coil.

It probably does sound better, since the epoxy coated ovals were replaced.

It could of sounded better, and the size and distance between the coils is strange.

[Shodrewken]

I think the important thing here is IbizaFlame is happy with the difference. And with that said, I'm glad you are able to enjoy your Klipsch speakers even more! Let the sweet tunes flow bro!

[The History Kid]

More than thrilled with the results my California brother!

[BEC]

The cheap iron core is of lesser quality than the steel laminate it replaced. Also, if the DCR isn't the same - the port/driver/cabinet alignment is wrong. I would consider this a downgrade.

The new resistor isn't any better than the one that replaced it - why bother.

The original air cores have high DCR values in the neighborhood of half an ohm. They are also in very close proximity to each other. This creates some mutual inductance, and the coil values are adjusted to compensate for this. Moving the air cores apart in combination with the larger gauge wire - changes the Q of the tweeter circuit.

Building on wood means a lot of extra wire, which increases insertion loss. The wire is partsexpress' cheapest offering. It turns green in less than a year.

You could have just replaced the 12uF and 5uF capacitors in series with the horn, along with a Mills resistor - and received just as good or better results. The ClarityCap ESA Series sound much better than Sonicap in these speakers.

 

Dean, I do not usually respond to your ramblings and self aggrandizement, but just have to occasionally.  Instead of taking your errors one at a time, thought I might just ask you one question.  Why do you think I had him send me a crossover?

[Deang]

Since when do you feel the need to resort to a personal attack to make your point? Disappointing.

With the exception of the capacitors, no part in the rebuild is better, or of higher quality than what was originally used.

I once had a conversation with Mark Blanchard about the Reference coils (high DCR and proximity), and John Warren agreed with what he told me.

It's probably better if you take my errors one by one like Al does. I like being entertained.

[BEC]

Dean, you know you never pass up an opportunity to criticize my work.  You also know that I do not criticize your work publicly.  You would get an email from me in that case, not a post to your customer.  Just a little common decency is requested.

OK, #1.  The inductor is a steel laminate with about the same DCR as the original.  I don't think you can even buy an iron core.

#2.  A resistor is simply a poor conductor of electricity.  It's qualities are that it is only a resistor and not an inductor and has adequate power handling capability.  There is nothing better than that as a resistor.

#3.  The original air core inductors are both around 0.3 for DCR.  The schematic says less than 0.5, so the originals are that and so are the replacements.  Turns out, I was not able to see any coupling of any significance between the original two air cores, so did not need to compensate for that.  I really thought that I might see some, so now you know why I wanted an original crossover.

#4.  The wire is a tinned stranded copper.   Did not come from Parts Express.

By the way, the deal made with my customer was that I would give building that crossover a shot and that he would pay me after he was satisfied with the crossover.

[Deang]

I haven't criticized anything you've done in years - except for the use of the Sonicaps.

I mistakenly assumed you were still using the same wire you used in the past, it's good that you've moved to tin annealed copper wire.

I played around quite a bit with the high pass coils in my RF-7s. Using lower DCR coils didn't work out well (too bright).

I honestly thought those were iron cores. The real point I was trying to make is that those aren't any better than what was in there - and they arent. Most widely available coils are half assed builds. However, the Jantzen air cores, UT windings, and Northcreek - are the exceptions.

No proximity issues? Did you test that with some wattage moving through the coils? Really curious on that point.

You're right. I should have called you. We were due for a talk anyways. I'm sorry, please forgive me.

Edited June 2, 2016 by Deang

[wvu80]

Here's hoping everything smooths out.  

Edited June 2, 2016 by wvu80

[BEC]

No proximity issues? Did you test that with some wattage moving through the coils? Really curious on that point.

 

I expected to find proximity issues, was prepared to address them, but did not find that.  I never did work out the first one like that I attempted, the CF-4.  Turned out to be a non-issue with this particular crossover for the RF-3/RF-3II.  Other RF series crossovers may be a different story.  But, someone needs to work this out.  We will see destroyed crossovers with no factory replacement available.  I have already seen this in the Forte, Forte II, KLF-30 and many times on the Heresy II.  Then there are the large numbers of the crossovers out of the Pro line that I see burned up very often.  We will see this on the Reference series also. I might never work this out for something as complex as the CF-4, but am pretty confident I can do this on all the much simpler crossovers in the Reference series.

[The History Kid]

By the way, the deal made with my customer was that I would give building that crossover a shot and that he would pay me after he was satisfied with the crossover.

And satisfied I certainly am. I owe you a phone call today.

[Deang]

I've done a lot of Reference networks - I've never seen a burned up resistor or coil.

I can see where my first post might seem a little inflammatory, but my second post was pretty benign (at least, I thought it was). At any rate, deleting posts is a bad idea - the thread loses continuity.