New to Klipsch, sound issues?

[gravityfeeder]

I recently purchased a pair of Cornwalls and a pair of Heresys.   Both are coded R so I think that both sets are of similar vintage. The top end of the Heresys is much more clear? The top end of the Cornwalls sounds distant and dull. The Cornwall horns are the same as the horns used in the Heresys. I pulled the back off of the speakers to find the Heresys to not have any stuffing, is this normal? The stuffing in the Cornwalls looks like paper and it also looks like mice have enjoyed themselves living in the comfort of the plywood boxes.  The crossover capacitors are metal oil filled, they look original. Tips on speaker stuffing, capacitor selection, stands, anything to get my speakers performing the best that they can would be of valuable.    

 

 

 

 

 

[jason str]

Capacitors need to be replaced.

 

Horns are not the same.

 

No stuffing in Heresy.

 

Replace the bad stuffing in the Cornwall.

[Marvel]

What ^^^ he said...

 

Also, the Heresy speakers, have less apparent bass, making the mids and high end seem more forward. With aging caps in the Cornwalls, the high end will be more subdued/lost, showing the differences between the two speaker systems. If, AFTER changing the Cornwall caps, you still think the Heresy is too bright, you can do a simple mod on the Heresy crossovers to adjust the tonal balance.

 

And welcome aboard. You've picked up some nice speakers.

 

Bruce

[Fjd]

I recently purchased a pair of Cornwalls and a pair of Heresys.   Both are coded R so I think that both sets are of similar vintage.

 

 

The excerpt for year of manufacture is from the link below and R = 1977. 

 

https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/161759-klipsch-heritage-codes-part-1-of-2-parts/

 

 

YEAR OF MANUFACTURE (1955 THROUGH 1983 ONLY)

                    A = 1955-63*           F = 1968       L = 1973       S = 1978

                    B = 1963-64*           G = 1969      M = 1974      T = 1979

                    C = 1965                H = 1970      N = 1975      U = 1980

                    D = 1966                J = 1971       P = 1976       W = 1981

                    E = 1967                 K = 1972       R = 1977      X = 1982

                                                                                Y = 1983

* Cornwall's & La Scala's used "A" 1963 and "B" for 1964; the first Cornwall to use a letter code was 3A09, shipped in August of 1963.

 

 

 

I recently purchased a pair of Cornwalls and a pair of Heresys.   Both are coded R so I think that both sets are of similar vintage. The top end of the Heresys is much more clear? The top end of the Cornwalls sounds distant and dull. The Cornwall horns are the same as the horns used in the Heresys. 

 

Normally operating Cornwalls should not sound muddy. Check your HF and MF horns by sticking a sock (literally) in each horn and listening for output from the other. Occasionally the terminals on the internal crossovers get corroded, so all that is needed is to open the back (or take woofer out) to access the innards and check all connections at the crossover.

 

 

Before making a lot of assumptions on more complex situations, see colterphoto1's post on verifying that all drivers are working.  In addition to the test above, I have a cardboard tube about the size of cardboard used on a toilet paper roll to put up to my ear and tweeters. Especially with high power amplifiers being very common, it seems to be very common to find a pair of Cornwall speakers with the tweeter diaphragms blown.

 

When using high power amplifiers with the old Heritage Klipsch speakers, I would also read the following "Dope from Hope" articles regarding the potential perils of using too much power that can be found at the link below from the Klipsch education page:

 

http://www.klipsch.c.../dope-from-hope

 

Vol. 7, No. 5, June 1966, "Blown Tweeters"

Vol. 8, No. 1, July 1967, "Guarantee Void!"

Vol. 13, No. 1, January 1973, "Fuses for Loudspeakers"

Vol. 13, No. 2, June 1973, "Speaker Destruction"

Vol. 14, No. 2, May 1974, "Power Ratings"

Vol. 16, No. 1, January 1977, "Amplifier Ratings to Drive Klipsch Systems

 

 

 

I pulled the back off of the speakers to find the Heresys to not have any stuffing, is this normal? The stuffing in the Cornwalls looks like paper and it also looks like mice have enjoyed themselves living in the comfort of the plywood boxes.  The crossover capacitors are metal oil filled, they look original. Tips on speaker stuffing, 

 

 

Defining the problem and the goal certainly help in defining the best solution.

 

A few thoughts and considerations...

Is this proposed dampening to reduce standing waves and cabinet resonance effecting woofer response, or to minimize radiated mid frequency vent noise, or...?

Or perhaps you are considering this just because others have done so and been pleased with the results (which is a valid reason as well! It just makes defining the solution alittle more difficult! As the specific problem to be solved still has to be identified...)

Allot of the sheet style foams are as reflective as they are absorptive...as their acoustical impedance varies with frequency. They will simply move the problem surround if they are not used 'surgically' - matching need to the response.

Lossy fiberfill is more effective for LF standing waves while sheet material such as sonix would be more appropriate for mf/hf vent noise suppression...

 

The foam or other dampening materials are used to dampen internal resonances or 'standing waves' in the cabinets. I have been 'corrected' in the past on this next point, but I believe that generally accepted speaker construction call for the following- The materials are USUALLY placed on one of each of two parallel surfaces in order to dampen resonances. In MOST cases this is the top, one side, and back of the cabinet. In NO case should the material interfere with the transmission of air through any port cavity.

On SOME Cornwalls, material is also placed on top of the port 'shelf', NEVER on the bottom of the cabinet, that's port area, and SOMETIMES the entire interior, including motor board is covered. My above rules are the GENERAL rules.

 

Back to the issue at hand. I actually replaced one panel in my Cornwalls with foam that was too thick. It choked the airflow to the ports and caused a noticeable lack of bass. Al Klappenberger talks about the woofer enclosures in the Klipsch Heritage line on his website. Now, maybe he's just referring to the Folded horn woofers here, but he cautioned to leave the bass enclosures alone and I'd have to agree, based upon my experience. The foam you chose:i.e. peak and base dimensions on the convolute should be less than an inch, combined, and especially on the back panel. That air has got to travel somewhat freely to the ports. Non-vented enclosures are probably fair game for more insulation, but not vented. Also, consider the width and length on the back panel to make sure it is no more than what came in the Cornwall 1. I changed back from a thicker, larger pc of foam to a densified polyester fiber pad of 3/4" thickness, and reduced the width and length to the factory size....suddenly bass response was back to normal. And, good greif, don't worry about covering the crossovers. My .02.

Note: This modification was only performed on the back panel. The other parts of my Cornwalls are the stock tissue paper.

 

"Heresys to not have any stuffing, is this normal?"

 

I'm sure that PWK had a design goal in mind with the closed box Heresy speaker and the specifications of the woofer driver he used.  In general, when designing a closed box, some designers will contemplate the use of stuffing and it is typically evenly dispersed throughout the cavity and the amount will depend upon the actual driver used. The theory being that a designer can achieve an effect of an increased cabinet volume by stuffing the cabinet. 

 

"stuffing in the Cornwalls looks like paper"

 

The Cornwall is a vented cabinet and the goals are typically different than a closed box.  The material is typically used to break standing waves inside the cabinet and I believe that with the Cornwall design the paper is only used to damp internal reflections and the main cavity of the cabinet is left open and the vent (e.g., port slot) then takes care of the overall driver / cabinet resonance.  Similar to what colterphoto1 has outlined above, if you replace the paper inside your Cornwall, you basically only need it on one of the two parallel sides (e.g., one on the top or bottom; and one on the left or right), and you do not typically need anything at all on the back or the front because the mounted drivers should have the same effect on the cabinet. 

Edited July 15, 2016 by Fjd

[Fjd]

 

Horns are not the same.

 

 

 

Since both the Cornwall speakers and Heresy speakers appear to be 1977 manufacturing vintage based on the R code, from my understanding both the K-600 (used in Cornwall) and K-700 (used in Heresy) both use the exponential horn flair profile and the midrange driver in 1977 was the same K55V midrange compression driver. 

 

The only difference that I'm aware of is the K-600 has a lower cutoff point to allow for a 600 Hz crossover point to the 15 inch woofer in the Cornwall where the K-700 has a 700 Hz crossover point to the 12 inch woofer in the Heresy. 

 

Both tweeters in 1977 would have been the K77 and the horn used on the K77 is the same for the Cornwall and the Heresy.  Therefore, unless the OP does not have stock parts, I am not aware of any difference in the midrange horn or tweeter horn at the 6,000 Hz crossover point (which is the same crossover point from midrange to tweeter for both Cornwall and Heresy) between the midrange horn and tweeter horn that would impact the sound as he describes.

 

The K77 tweeter should have essentially the same, or very similar, performance in the Cornwall as it would in the Heresy, which is why I suggested the colterphoto1 test to determine if the high frequency tweeter drivers were working..

Edited July 15, 2016 by Fjd

[jason str]

 

 

Horns are not the same.

 

 

 

Since both the Cornwall speakers and Heresy speakers appear to be 1977 manufacturing vintage based on the R code, from my understanding both the K-600 (used in Cornwall) and K-700 (used in Heresy) both use the exponential horn flair profile and the midrange driver in 1977 was the same K55V midrange compression driver. 

 

The only difference that I'm aware of is the K-600 has a lower cutoff point to allow for a 600 Hz crossover point to the 15 inch woofer in the Cornwall where the K-700 has a 700 Hz crossover point to the 12 inch woofer in the Heresy. 

 

Both tweeters in 1977 would have been the K77 and the horn used on the K77 is the same for the Cornwall and the Heresy.  Therefore, unless the OP does not have stock parts, I am not aware of any difference in the midrange horn or tweeter horn at the 6,000 Hz crossover point (which is the same crossover point from midrange to tweeter for both Cornwall and Heresy) between the midrange horn and tweeter horn that would impact the sound as he describes.

 

The K77 tweeter should have essentially the same performance in the Cornwall as it would in the Heresy, which is why I suggested the colterphoto 1 test of drivers.

 

 

Stand the K-600 and the K-700 horns next to each other and you will see the differences.

[Paducah Home Theater]

I pulled the back off of the speakers to find the Heresys to not have any stuffing, is this normal?

 

The new Heresy speakers have foam that lines the inside of the box.  The older ones don't have anything from what I gather.  

[Fjd]

 

 

 

Horns are not the same.

 

 

 

Since both the Cornwall speakers and Heresy speakers appear to be 1977 manufacturing vintage based on the R code, from my understanding both the K-600 (used in Cornwall) and K-700 (used in Heresy) both use the exponential horn flair profile and the midrange driver in 1977 was the same K55V midrange compression driver. 

 

The only difference that I'm aware of is the K-600 has a lower cutoff point to allow for a 600 Hz crossover point to the 15 inch woofer in the Cornwall where the K-700 has a 700 Hz crossover point to the 12 inch woofer in the Heresy. 

 

Both tweeters in 1977 would have been the K77 and the horn used on the K77 is the same for the Cornwall and the Heresy.  Therefore, unless the OP does not have stock parts, I am not aware of any difference in the midrange horn or tweeter horn at the 6,000 Hz crossover point (which is the same crossover point from midrange to tweeter for both Cornwall and Heresy) between the midrange horn and tweeter horn that would impact the sound as he describes.

 

The K77 tweeter should have essentially the same performance in the Cornwall as it would in the Heresy, which is why I suggested the colterphoto 1 test of drivers.

 

 

Stand the K-600 and the K-700 horns next to each other and you will see the differences.

 

 

 

Please note that the OP has described a specific issue in sound that I offered a few basic simple preliminary alternate tests; and an analysis of the horns in describing why I did not think the horns were responsible for the issue. To me, a general response that the "horns are not the same" does not seem very helpful and does not seem to be useful information for someone new to Klipsch.  So the difference in sound that the OP describes is something you have directly experienced that you have attributed to the horn size? 

 

Please note that I currently have eight pairs of Heresy speakers ranging from the early 1960s through the 1970s.  I have also had four pair of Cornwall speakers from the 1970s and currently have a pair of Cornwall IIs from 1986.  In addition, I have a parts bin with spares of both K-600 horns and K-700 horns (and examples of the K-700 horns with the different mounting hole patterns used in certain years of manufacture) and two pair of K-400 horns from my La Scalas and 1976 Klipschorn speakers (I have the wood tractrix currently installed in Khorns and keeping the K-400 horns and K510 slated for La Scalas) and I do completely understand the general size differences between all of these horns.  As referenced I also have K510 horns and K402 horns on my Jubilees and certainly do completely understand the size differences there too and differences in horn flair profiles.

 

I have also had both Cornwall speakers and Heresy speakers set up in less than optimal settings, and have never experienced what the OP describes except when I bought a pair that had a blown tweeter. 

[jason str]

The OP claimed the horns are the same in his Heresy and Cornwall, i was just stating that they are in fact not the same.

Edited July 15, 2016 by jason str

[Fjd]

The OP claimed the horns are the same in his Heresy and Cornwall, i was just stating that they are in fact not the same.

 

 

I've read enough of your posts to know that you are knowledgeable and experienced and you are not this naïve of all of the issues with sound reproduction; and often not this unwilling to be a helpful resource to someone new when it comes to clarifying information.  Yes, in general, ONE PARAMETER of size the two horns in question are not the same.  However, we were all new and inexperienced once (at least I was) and I've tried to show that on several other parameters there are reasons why the K-600 and K-700 are the same exponential flair profile and are most likely not responsible for the OP's issue. 

 

On a side note, I have a single Belle with a K-500 that is also slated for a K510 update and certainly do understand the general size difference with that horn too..

[Marvel]

The truth here is that Jason corrected what the OP thought was correct. It didn't need to get into an encyclopedia of the other info... which, btw, is also correct and good information.

[jason str]

Just made it simple for a first time poster so not to confuse.

 

Sorry if it seemed too simple, just trying to help the guy and all this bickering is probably not helping.

[Fjd]

I recently purchased a pair of Cornwalls and a pair of Heresys.   Both are coded R so I think that both sets are of similar vintage. The top end of the Heresys is much more clear? The top end of the Cornwalls sounds distant and dull. The Cornwall horns are the same as the horns used in the Heresys. I pulled the back off of the speakers to find the Heresys to not have any stuffing, is this normal? The stuffing in the Cornwalls looks like paper and it also looks like mice have enjoyed themselves living in the comfort of the plywood boxes.  The crossover capacitors are metal oil filled, they look original. Tips on speaker stuffing, capacitor selection, stands, anything to get my speakers performing the best that they can would be of valuable.    

 

The truth here is that Jason corrected what the OP thought was correct. It didn't need to get into an encyclopedia of the other info... which, btw, is also correct and good information.

 

 

My apologies if my “encyclopedia” offends you in my attempt to add a little clarification and more detailed information based on my experience, which I fully realize may not be important to you or Jason str. It may be hard for you to believe; however, some people actually have said that they appreciate the thought I put into my posts in relation to the specific questions asked in trying to get to the actual issue and that the posts are sometimes informative and useful. 

 

I realize that every person is different, but I personally try to corroborate and validate things I read on the internet before I run blindly and make changes, which tends to make information that is a little more specific, where I can research it, more useful to me.

 

I'm not a mind reader so I try to lay out the facts as I know them and welcome when someone more knowledgeable provides constructive clarification rather than tell someone their post wasn't needed or necessary. Please note that the OP described a perceived issue with the sound, and in my posts about the horns, I was evaluating the section of the OP's post that I highlighted above and was trying to think about what he may have seen when he pulled the back off the speakers, but I concede that maybe you and Jason str have more specific knowledge in relation to what the OP knows and what he doesn’t know, or actually meant to post, over what I am aware, 

 

However, in most of my specific person-to-person interactions with someone unfamiliar with Klipsch heritage horn speakers from that time period, when they pull the back off and see the same midrange compression drivers or see that K55V is stamped on the back of the compression drivers, there again, in my experience, the tendency has been that the person that is unfamiliar thinks that driver reference is the horn reference.  Same situation when they see the same K77 tweeter, which is a little more straight-forward given that driver and horn are one unit. 

 

There again, I did not anticipate sharing my experiences would cause such a back-lash since it was nothing more than a few simple clarifications on various other parameters of the horns that are the same, in order to provide an alternate perspective and insight to promote learning and provide potential topics for more research in trying to help the OP solve his issue; and for those that want to learn rather than be told. While you and jason str may not find my own personal experience relevant in relation to your experience, others on the forum might. 

[CECAA850]

Before making a lot of assumptions on more complex situations, see colterphoto1's post on verifying that all drivers are working.

 

 

Start with this, it will most likely lead you to your issue.

[nitrofan]

Every cornwall I've ever heard sounds like a lascala with a blanket thrown over it. Does have more bass though

[WMcD]

I recently purchased a pair of Cornwalls and a pair of Heresys.   Both are coded R so I think that both sets are of similar vintage. The top end of the Heresys is much more clear? The top end of the Cornwalls sounds distant and dull. The Cornwall horns are the same as the horns used in the Heresys. I pulled the back off of the speakers to find the Heresys to not have any stuffing, is this normal? The stuffing in the Cornwalls looks like paper and it also looks like mice have enjoyed themselves living in the comfort of the plywood boxes.  The crossover capacitors are metal oil filled, they look original. Tips on speaker stuffing, capacitor selection, stands, anything to get my speakers performing the best that they can would be of valuable.    

Welcome to the forum and the assembly of folks here which have Klipsch speakers.

 

The issue requires some methodical troubleshooting to find the problem.  Some speakers go on the second-hand market because they have a problem.

 

From what you describe the Heresy speakers do not have a problem.  It is suspicious that the CW's are not similar in top end to the H.  They should.  A driver or two may have failed.  I'm talking about the mid and the tweeter.

 

Regarding the CW's.  Place them next to each other.  Use a balance control (adjustment of left and right volume on the amp) to determine whether the two sound alike as you adjust balance to cut off Left and then Right.  It is a sort to determining whether one or the other is lacking output. It can be otherwise difficult to determine the failure of a driver on one side.

 

I'll add here that tweeters are delicate and are the most likely to have failed.  They are sounding at just the top octave or so and contribute to the sparkle and sizzle.  If you listen to a working tweeter alone, it's output is remarkably tinny and not too strong.  The mid horn is doing a lot of the work.

 

Then, play just one speaker box at a time, using the balance control to shut the other down.  Use a paper towel roll as a stethoscope with one end to your ear and the other up against the tweeter, and then the midrange horn mouth (the big end at the front board) to determine whether these four are indeed putting out sound.  Just scan across the locations.  You may find out what is not working (if anything).

 

A lot of people suggest replacing capacitors.  I believe this might lead to improvements but the overall lack of top end is probably not an "old cap" issue. 

 

Yup.  Rodent problems are not uncommon.  There is some question about just how much effect the paper quilt, lack of any absorption, or a lot of stuffing will have. But in any case, the paper quilt is not likely to have caused the lack of high end you describe.

 

Another common problem is the screw down connection at the crossover board.  You should back off and snug down those connections.

 

Let us know what you find.

 

WMcD

[Marvel]

Fjd, I apologize... Your info was/is very good (as I stated above), I just thought it might be a bit overwhelming to someone new here.

Nitrofan - you made me laugh out loud...

Bruce