Mike Lindsey Posted September 5, 2002 Share Posted September 5, 2002 Every once in a while when I am listening to something at pretty loud volumes, I can slightly hear the music about to be played (.5 second delay), during a quiet passage. It's not on all albums but I have heard it on a few. Does this mean I do not have my TT set up correctly? Thanks, Mike ------------------ My Music Systems This message has been edited by Mike Lindsey on 09-05-2002 at 11:29 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted September 5, 2002 Share Posted September 5, 2002 Don't adjust your set. You are experiencing a phenomenon every audiophile and professional would have recognized 25 years ago. The slight pre-echo is called "print through" and is the result of the strong signal on a layer of magnetic tape magnetizing an image of itself on the adjoining layer above, which is, of course, silent at the beginning. Most pros used very thick tape and the Europeans in particular stored their tapes tales out to prevent. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted September 5, 2002 Share Posted September 5, 2002 No, this is a pre-echo. Nothing out of the normal and sometimes you can hear it more than other depending on the recording. Also, some cartridges/arms reproduce the sounds of the recording without amplification. I am sure many here have experienced this when your amp is down and you can hear the song playing lightly from the very table itself. The pre-echo on some recordings is insanely loud, however.... kh ------------------ Phono Linn Sondek LP-12 Valhalla / Linn Basic Plus / Sumiko Blue Point CD Player Rega Planet Preamp Cary Audio SLP-70 w/Phono Modified Amplifier Welborne Labs 2A3 Moondog Monoblocks Cable DIYCable Superlative / Twisted Cross Connect Speaker 1977 Klipsch Cornwall I w/Alnico & Type B Crossover Links system one online / alternate components / Asylum Listing f>s> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Lindsey Posted September 5, 2002 Author Share Posted September 5, 2002 Heh... you guys posted the same thing at the same time. Thanks a bunch for clearing that up... Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DANOCASTER Posted September 5, 2002 Share Posted September 5, 2002 Hey Mike..here's another twist on that. I have a Rega P3 (In Kermit the Frog GREEN!!)w/ the INCOGNITO upgrade (HUGE improvement) and a Shure V-15 cartridge. I often hear the same "pre-echo" and searched Vinyl Asylum and found the answer!! My cartridge ,like many, has a brush in front and THAT is what is reading the record prior to the stylus. Flip the brush up and VOILA !!- its gone. Brush back down and there it is again. !! Interesting...very interesting Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted September 5, 2002 Share Posted September 5, 2002 I've never heard that, but I've used Stantons with the brush in the past. Guess it could happen. But now I'm asking myself "Self, how could a brush trailing the stylus create a pre echo?" Dave This message has been edited by Mallett on 09-05-2002 at 08:46 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WMcD Posted September 5, 2002 Share Posted September 5, 2002 I thought this was a result of the process of cutting the master. Remember that our vinyl is the result of a mechnical casting process which recreates the master disk, which was cut with some sort of stylus on a plate of aluminum or the like. The grooves (sp?) are placed as close together as technology allowed to get 20 minutes of music on a 33.33 rpm "microgroove" record. Of course the record is a continuous spiral running from the outer edge into the label area. The mechanical problem is that cutting a groove in one revolution would create enought stress in the surface of the master so that it would strain or distort the groove which had previously been cut at the same radial location just outboard, toward the edge. The result is in playing is that the portion of the spiral cut (presently being played) is contaminated by what was cut in the following, later, revolution. So, as described, there is a "pre-echo." We hear the upcoming portion of the spiral groove. You don't hear this at the quiet bands between tracks (individual songs on a 33.33 rpm) because they have a greater pitch and therefore are not placed as close. That pitch is why we can see the quiet bands between tracks, and plop down the stylus to hear Stairway to Heaven, one more time. Let's see. 33.33 (revolution / min) * 1 (min / 60 second) = 0.555 seconds. That is a simple conversion of revolution per minute to revolution per second. The record goes around once every 0.555 seconds. (A check of your mental state or visual acutity is whether you can read the label while it's playing! Much more difficult on CD's. Smile.) So if there is cross talk between the grooves, the pre echo should be by 0.555 seconds. I don't think it is a brush issue because the brush spans many, many grooves of the spiral and would average out. This effect depends on the cirumstances of the cutting of the master die. So it is not a playback issue. That's what I think. Gil This message has been edited by William F. Gil McDermott on 09-05-2002 at 10:29 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted September 5, 2002 Share Posted September 5, 2002 I think the brush theory is a bit much as well. But to be clear, the brush is IN FRONT of the stylus. kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted September 5, 2002 Share Posted September 5, 2002 MH: You are absolutely correct about the brush. Got me head turned around. Gil: I can't really follow that, so will not dispute. I never worked in the disc cutting end of the business. However, the "print through" issue I discribed was a given in the magnetic tape area. I used to cue tapes by cranking them up and listening for the PT point. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mighty Favog Posted September 5, 2002 Share Posted September 5, 2002 So the magnetic tape could be playing a previous "take" of the artist when the engineer is using the same spot on the tape and recording over it? ------------------ Tom's Money Pit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted September 6, 2002 Share Posted September 6, 2002 No...this is not happening. It really is a problem with the bleed through or print through of cheap tape, tape wound too tightly, improperly stored, etc. AT least this is the explanation I have heard for it countless times. Also, Gil's post makes sense as well; I have heard of this groove distortion. Seems it could be either.... a portion of the groove bleeding into the next or print through; as noted, I have seen both discussed in the past. One might see where the problem lies in the rotation. Led Zeppelin has some serious pre-echo on a few of their LPs. But the idea of different takes remaining on the tape is not a likely one. kh This message has been edited by mobile homeless on 09-06-2002 at 08:30 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DANOCASTER Posted September 6, 2002 Share Posted September 6, 2002 GUYS..I think it depends on each SPECIFIC instance. In most cases, what we are saying we're hearing is BETWEEN tracks on an LP, right??. You hear the beginning of the song just before it "really" comes in?? Thats NOT gonna be bleed thru on a master reel. The masters ,which LPs are cut from, are 2 track mixes and in almost ALL cases have leader between the songs that are sliced in SUPER CLOSE to the start and end of the individual tracks. The leader can't retain any magnetic bleed thru and so it wouldnt create this. On the 2" MASTER tape w/ the individual tracks/takes,etc..you often CAN hear bleed thru- especially (as Mobile stated)if the tape had been stored for long peroids incorrectly. But ,one would rarely ever hear those in a mix unless it was on a VERY LOUD lead vocal- then maybe. In most cases, the mix engineer would mute them out. As for "the brush theory"- it wasnt MY theory but it DOES indeed eliminate the pre echo on about 70% of the instances I hear it - ON MY PARTICULAR SYSTEM. Makes sense though. The brush makes contact w/ the LP and also w/ the cartridge. At louder levels ( which is usually when i hear the pre-echo), it seems very possible that those vibrations could be transmitted to the cartridge. And w/ the distance its spaced from the cartridge- it WOULD be about a 300-400 millisecond delay- which is usually what it is roughly.. I dont know for sure, but I personally have never put up an older MIX reel of tape and heard bleed thru --especially w/ leader. ON the 2"- yes- but not on a finished mix reel... go figure This message has been edited by DANOCASTER on 09-06-2002 at 04:36 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DANOCASTER Posted September 6, 2002 Share Posted September 6, 2002 If nobody buys the brush theory, I'd have to say Gil's explanation is the only one that really makes sense- to me at least. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Lindsey Posted September 6, 2002 Author Share Posted September 6, 2002 Well... like you, I have a Shure V15 (Type V-MR) with the stabilizer bar and brush attached to the stylus, and I'm definitely hearing the pre-echo on a number of LP's. I haven't tried it with the brush up yet, but will do so over the weekend. I will report my findings when I get a chance... Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
electrogadget Posted October 3, 2002 Share Posted October 3, 2002 I dont have a masters in electro-dynamics, but, with my playing with tables, a dual 2150, a jvc, and a b&o, ive noticed that almost all problems come from not having a good ground. its a simple solution, might work, probaly not, good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Lindsey Posted October 4, 2002 Author Share Posted October 4, 2002 Sorry Electro, but this has nothing to do with the ground. If it was a ground problem, I would be getting hum or feedback. What I am hearing is exactly what was pointed out in the thread... a pre-echo... Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunnysal Posted October 4, 2002 Share Posted October 4, 2002 It almost certainly IS print through. This, as mentioned before, is an ufortunately common occurance in both Music and Film sound due to the magnetism recorded on tape printing through to other layers while lying on the tape roll...it is a huge problem in archiving tape...most often the effects are heard more in Bass frequencies (naturally)...movies suffer from this as well. If we only could record without winding on a reel...HEY that's what direct to disk is! hard disks rule! many engineers keeop tapes stored backwards, with the *** end out, not rewound, I am not sure why but they say this helps...regards, tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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