What would a "state of the art" system look like...

[Mallette]

...and cost with the below qualities? I've attempt to format the below with as few absolutes as possible in an attempt to make it acceptable, at least as opinion, to as wide a Forum audience as possible.

The CDeluxe/Dell 410 is capable of resolving the limited musical information available to the CD format in a way that encourages the avid music listener who has been skeptical of the CD format to relegate any remaining artifacts to the catagory of greatly diminishing returns. Further, it's ability to provide easy access to hundreds or thousands of CD's and add remote control to vintage systems provides a flexibility that no dedicated high-end player of which I am aware can achieve. Add to that the fact that if a home network is available one can simultaneously stream real time music to every connected computer. Top it off with the ability to archive LP's to 24/96 with a level of quality few non-audiophiles are going to be able to tell from the original, and that few audiophiles are going to suggest is not of excellent quality and worth listening to as opposed to the destructive play of the originals, and you've got something well worth 379.00, and not available otherwise in a DIY package.

Not having made anything like an exhaustive survey of available sound cards, it is quite possible there is another or more that might be adequate or even superior in this application. If so, the substitute the cost/brand of your favorite.

Here's the "challenge:" To any of the high-end advocates who would care to give it a whirl, I would really enjoy your putting together the above capabilities at a level you would consider "state of the art" so we can have a real-world price comparison. As a $tereophile subscriber (not much left for those of us on a budget with Listener gone), I know it can be done.

Dave

Yours in fun and fellowship,

Dave

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David A. Mallett

Come taste muh'

[mobile homeless]

"State of the Art" is a hard thing to define and certainly very hard to achieve in anything, let alone audio. Even agree to what "state of the art" defines can be a challenging task.

Still, I am all for attempting to try this sound card solution as I am looking to transfer my aging live reel to reel collection from years gone by to something other than these tapes. And I have been weighing in the options of sound card vs external device. Over the last two years, I have been favoring the external solution as I have never been happy with digital on the computer for a variety of reasons. But these new sound cards have comea LONG way. John Atkinson had some pretty nice things to say about the CardDeluxe (although there were some reservations in some areas - but it got a glowing review in context. Please see the review - albeit with a shoddy system -via Stereophile, remembering it was in 2000, a LIFETIME in computer terms: http://www.stereophile.com/showarchives.cgi?280 ).

If I do get this card, I look forward to trying it out in my main system which is pretty damn good, as it's extremely detailed and revealing while still being emminently musical, something that is a must for me. I hope to have a good trial here. While I dont see connecting my computer to my main system in general, it will be interesting to get some conclusions. Also, I expect it will be used with my office system, a pretty nice example itself.

kh

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Phono Linn Sondek LP-12 Valhalla / Linn Basic Plus / Sumiko Blue Point

CD Player Rega Planet

Preamp Cary Audio SLP-70 w/Phono Modified

Amplifier Welborne Labs 2A3 Moondog Monoblocks

Cable DIYCable Superlative / Twisted Cross Connect

Speaker 1977 Klipsch Cornwall I w/Alnico & Type B Crossover

Links system one online / alternate components / Asylum Listing f>s>

[mike stehr]

'State of the art'. Reminds me of 'Giving a 110 percent'.

I'm no Computer Geek by no means, and Dave's idea of using a CPU as a main source is really quite interesting.

But, just how sonically linear are CPU power supplies?

They are switchers, and more than likely use cheaper parts, and with that noisy little fan to cool it off.

And I would guess you would never find the quality power supplies in CPU's, that any high dollar SS mono/stereo audio amplifiers or digital sources would have.

Then all the other circuits, main processer etc, etc,

jammed into one box, RF noise?

(Maybe PC's need to be broken down into separate components?)

I couldn't even think of hooking a junk PC to vintage tube amplifiers as a source, it would seem to me a big invitation to noise.

(I have enough noise issues.)

I dunno, maybe I'm missing something....

Anyone bougnt one of those soundcards with the tube buffer/output circuit or whatever the hell it is yet?

[mobile homeless]

John Atkinson felt the same way and with the measurements of the CardDeluxe, found some problems as well. There are BOUND to be problems here given the nature of the medium and that is where the CD players that are excellent, really come through. They have quality Power supplies, filtering, and analog sections, dedicated to this task. There is no comparison. That is why I have been talking about there being MUCH more to digital than the DAC.

Still, the PC cards, and PCs in general, have gotten a lot better. To me, this is the medium they should be compared to, although audio is a good benchmark. The computer cards have REALLY come a long way and the BEST can beat pedestrian digital cd players, even challenging some quality gear. They also have a GREAT advantage in storing the media, as well as convience. BUT, the computer is just a mess when it comes to a good housing for anything of quality. It is a tremendous uphill battle. It does offer a great alternative; I just dont see it as reaching the height of separate players. Just like in audio in general, separates can better focus the task at hand, dedicating their services. The computer is great for convienence, but a poor source for achieving the ultimate in sonics due to the various tasks at hand and the rather mediocre parts, at least compared to dedicated, quality audio.

Yet, I am eager to hear just how far it has come; evidently, it has come an amazing distance, sonics and all.

kh

ps- I would like to add that I am no big John Atkinson fan, and rarely align with him on things of audio nature. Stereophile has almost hit rock bottom over the last five years although it started the decline to the skids long before that. The Audio mags have really had hard times as of late - Home Theater is the main thing keeping this industry afloat, sadly enough.

This message has been edited by mobile homeless on 09-07-2002 at 02:49 PM

[Mallette]

Now, bearing in mind that I am music first, measurements second, I ask the following:

What in the world would the computer power supply have to do with the minute requirements of the sound card? While I've not moved it from the HT computer I built a couple of years ago when my listening system was integrated with the TV, I paid 85.00 for a silent "high end" (quotes because HE for a computer, not necessarilly audio standpoint...I'm getting a bit paranoid about phrasing these days) power supply. It is very quiet. However that was what I paid for, and gave no thought to any audible issues. I am NOT saying it has no impact, just saying I've not heard anything to suggest it might. Of course, Dell builds a pretty robust system throughout, so it may have a pretty decent power supply. If anyone is interested in that silent PS, let me know an I will hunt down the outfit that supplies it. Every computer system is different, that is why I am specifying this Dell 410, because I cannot trace any sonic issues to it.

As to noise, I can turn it full up with no signal and it is as silent as any other input on my system, with the exception of the phono stage. Sure, there is a bit of hiss, but utterly inable at maximum real listening levels, which are about 3 o'clock on my system since I'm running the HK Citation 12 at 100w/ch. I hope this doesn't change with the AVA70i when it returns (SOON, I hope!).

Perhaps it is because I've nothing else in there but the graphics card and placed the CDeluxe at the far side of the bus? Don't know. I just know there is no noise that I can hear that could be traced to the computer. I DID have a problem when I had the CPU sitting on the same cabinet as the TT. I moved it, problem solved.

I am reasonably certain this will be of no help, as I don't have much credibility in the hearing department on the Forum due to my claims...perhaps for good reason. However I wish to state again that both my recordings and my system have impressed, even astonished, many musicians, music lovers, and audiophiles in the Dallas/Fort Worth area. It may be we are talking about a different standard or something, but I'm getting nothing but music from this thing, and I am listening to CD's with pleasure for the first time ever.

Back to another point..."state of the art." Since that doesn't work for some of you, please re-phrase to mean something that DOES work for however you define as the best you can get sonically without getting to Bill Gates class of financial resources.

I'd still like to hear some suggestions as to how a system with the specs I suggested could be improved within financial reason (and I'll leave that to the responders to determine where it might lie).

Let's just forget the equipment and set the specs:

-Transparent playback of digital material (again, you define)

-random access

-unlimited storage

-net ability

-24/96 (as well as all below) record capable

Even assuming it is perhaps not quite as good (which remains to be proven to me...though I'm open), I suspect a significant number of Forum members would prefer the above capabilities for the same price as a single-drawer CD player.

But then, TJMHO.

Dave

[Audio Flynn]

Stereophile has almost hit rock bottom over the last five years although it started the decline to the skids long before that. The Audio mags have really had hard times as of late - Home Theater is the main thing keeping this industry afloat, sadly enough.

-Mobile

Amen to that unfortunate constant in the industry. People tend to spend more money on their TVs and Sattelite equipment than on their audio playback.

Certainly power supply and shielding would be important in the PC.

Questions abound..

What MHZ CPU?

AMD or Intel CPU have any inherent benifit or liability?

Eliminate the "noise" of a graphics card and go to on motherboard graphics or is that worse?

Much more to this investigation than buying "the Card Deluxe" itself.

[j-malotky]

Hi All

I plan to build my "multimedia" PC this fall. So please keep the posts comming.

I've been watching other forums and this is a big topic, mostily in HT not so much pure audio. Even been some guys selling homebuilt HTPC boxes to others.

I think you are right Dave, It most certainly can be done. If the Audio cards are as quiet as you say, I think you are mostly there.

I am worried about drivers and OS problems. Would be great to get these cards running with Linux and bypass the Microsoft blue screens....

JM

[Deang]

http://www.johnvestman.com/digital_myth.htm

This message has been edited by deang on 09-07-2002 at 09:55 PM

[Mallette]

Well, JM, given my late concern for absolutes I should suggest that the CDeluxe is quiet in MY system. I cannot speak for all of them everywhere. Given my experience with computers (fairly extenisive), I can certainly say that they are all quite different even when the components are essentially the same.

As to OS and driver issues, I am still running 98. The computer on which I am working at the moment has been up 24/7 for over three months. I HATE Microsoft and was brought up with much more stable, competent, real multi-tasking OS which I won't get into because no one really believe it anyway. OTOH, if you keep it SIMPLE and don't overtax it, 98 can bet at least stable. This system does nothing but interent. My audio server does nothing but audio, my home banking system does nothing but accounting. The only one that gives me occasional blue screen is my video/audio/scanning etc. work system that has to really do a lot of things.

If you are going to build an audio server, just keep it to audio. NT might be more stable, and CDeluxe has drivers, but I don't know about all the other software that is necessary.

Dave