EV Georgian

[taylor]

Hi, Well Im finally really to start building a K-horn sub but before I start, I have a question. The plans that I borrowed from a friends father turned out to be EV Georgian KD2 diy plans. The booklet states that EV, who provides Klipsch w/ drivers, was licenced to sell the plans for their corner horn. The booklet is mint and has step by step instructions and photos of construction. Is this identical to the K-horn and should the K-33 work? The driver listed in the plans is a 15WK. Thanks for any advise on this.

taylor

[WMcD]

Yes, I'd think that the K-33 would work nicely. The Georgian is a licensed K-Horn and new K-Horns use the K-33.

Gil

[Malcolm]

Or you can buy an EV 15WK. They show up on eBay from time to time. Much better woofer IMHO. But K-33 probably won't sound much different. There was quite a variety of different woofers used in the Klipschorn and some of the other Klipsch Heritage designs.

If you go for the EV woofer, make sure it is a 15WK, not a 15W. 15WK has lower DCR and was built specifically for a horn loaded cabinet.

[edwardre]

Taylor - There are a few subtle differences in the bass bins. The 2 biggest differences are that the Georgian has the woofer access hatch in the front and the Klipsch has the access hatch on the side. Neither affects the sound, IMO. The other difference is not so much a difference between EV and Klipsch, but in the era built. Current (from about 1960 on) Klipsch build is with a 3" throat aperture. Earlier models as well as the Georgian have a 6" (or larger) aperture. The K33 is designed to play through the 3" throat. If you build the Georgian to spec, my advice would be to seek out a EV15WK or a Stephens Trusonic 103LX2 woofer. These were the predominant engines used for this throat design. Of course you could build it with a 3" throat and mount a K33, but IMHO, there is no comparison between the K33 and the EV/Stephens drivers. To me, they DO sound very different. The EV/Stephens units have far more pronounced, deep bass.

Would be cool if you post pics as you go through your project! Good luck.

------------------

Ed

[HDBRbuilder]

If you desire to change the throat size on the motorboard, it is 3" x 13"...and if you decide to put the "door" to the bass bin on the side of the cabinet instead of the front(will give a smoother line and appearance)...the door is 15 1/8" vertically toward the front ...then extends to the rear 4 1/2"...then tapers upward at 45 degrees from the bottom...tapering downward at 45 degrees from the top...all in a horizontal linear distance from its beginning point for another 6 1/2"...then the opening ends with a straight vertical line...just picture a trapezoid on its side with the narrower part towards the rear of the side of the bass bin...centered between the top and bottom of the "pyramid" inner panels on that particular side.

to get an idea of what I mean...go to: www.exdreamnet.de/bauplaene//hoerner/klipsch_lehr_horn101.jpg

Although the dimensions are in millimeters, and are not quite "on", the pic will show you the position of the "door" opening on the side of the k-horn.

------------------

I can now receive private messages

This message has been edited by HDBRbuilder on 09-20-2002 at 09:06 PM

[taylor]

Thanks for the info. Another variable just entered the picture. I acquired a second set of plans that were the actual ones used by by friend to a pair of K-horns. This was in 1956. He remembers getting the "newer" dyi set many years later. The old set shows more parts, more bizarre angle cuts, and is 32.25 inch wide. The newer version, 1964ish, claims to be redesigned for ease of construction as has all the same exterior dimensions except the width- its only 26.75 inches wide. Depth and height are the same. The layout is claimed to be a scaled down Patrician layout. Although the older plans are probably standard K-horn dimensions, the newer set are FAR better designed for building. Fewer parts,photos and the step-by-step instructions make it a more likely successfull and less frustrating project. And both plans do show a 6inch wide slot. I guess Ill build the newer one w/ a k-33 and use a 3inch slot since I dont have the time to search for a good cond. EV or Stephens. Im scanning both manuals and if anyone is interested in a copy or maybe would like to post them somewhere, let me know. Thanks

taylor

[HDBRbuilder]

Sounds good to me...e-mail me a copy of each of them when you get them scanned-in...I prefer JPG if at all possible, though...zip-file is fine with me! My e-mail address is Jahren60@aol.com The "0" in it is a zero!!

I like to compare the plans I see floating around with the real thing...I seem to always find differences/discrepencies, though...guess it is the "nature of the beast", huh?

Seems to me that it is often better to reverse engineer a set of plans by taking exact measurements from a pair of whatever you are wanting plans for...I have fopund that having a pair gives you an "average" to work from.

------------------

I can now receive private messages

[John Warren]

taylor-

the Patrician IV is *easier* to construct for the DIYer than the versions of Klipschorn up to early 80s. I have built both. The plans are available from

EV (call the tech department). Also Audio magazine published the Patrician plans in the October 1955 edition of the magazine.

Regarding drivers-

I have never heard the Trusonic woofer in the Klipschorn but I DO have a pair of EV15WKs and, based on listening tests and measured frequency response, it looks to me like the K33E does a better job. I have replaced the EV units from a early 60s set of Klipschorns I own with K33Es.

This message has been edited by John Warren on 09-21-2002 at 06:01 PM

[taylor]

Thanks for the comments. Im glad to hear that the k-33 isnt such a bad option since its all most of us diyers can get. BTW, one nice thing about the "front-loader"-the slot is made in the driver mounting baffle board and therefore easily removed. So if I do come by an EV etc, I can just make a new baffle board w/ a 6 X 13 slot. Because the baffle is the mounting for the driver, one can swap drivers pretty quickly for AB comparation. Wouldnt that be fun!

taylor

[DizRotus]

I would also be interested scanned sets of the plans. If you don't post them to the BB, I would be grateful for a set emailed to the address in my profile.

[djk]

As regards optimum throat size for the K33E:

"Once the electroacoustic transducer has been selected, the characteristics of the selected electroacoustic transducer which are published by the manufacturer can be used to determine the area for the throat of the exponential horn in accordance with the article by Wente and Thuras, "Auditory Perspective-Loud Speakers and Microphones", Trans. A.I.E.E., January, 1934, pp. 19-20. The throat area thus determined provides maximum power transfer, or efficiency, for the selected electroacoustic transducer. For the KLIPSCH K33E, the throat area must be approximately 78 square inches, or 503 square centimeters."

PWK Dec. 2, 1980

[Tom Mobley]

djk,

Now that is interesting. If that's what he believed I wonder why he built all those speakers with a 3 x 13 slot? Got any bright ideas on this? Doesn't seem to add up very well.

I dithered about this quite a bit when I got my DIY LS's together, almost bought a set of 4 ohm JBL and opened the slot up to 6". In the end nobody could come up with any definitive answer on whether or not the speakers would actually sound better that way, although I can't imagine why not. I bought a new set of K33E's and put them together. Now here is the kicker, I've discovered that the guy who originally built the boxes left out the "mosquito wings", the angled slats between the motorboard and the back that form the first portion of the horn. I'm going to pull the backs off and put them in. While they're apart would you recommend enlarging the slot to 6"? I'm hinky about this deal. If it matters, most of the listening to these speakers is at very low volume compared to what a lot of people do.

BTW, I saw your mod sealing up the top of the cabinet and cutting through to the woofer chamber, that's an interesting deal and quite do-able. I just need to spend the necessary time to understand the electrical part of the mod.

Tom

[John Warren]

This message has been edited by John Warren on 09-23-2002 at 05:07 AM

[HDBRbuilder]

Standard motorboard slot (throat) on factory-built LaScalas is 3" x 13", routed out with 3/8" diameter bits (leaving a radius in corners)...this was the size used when I worked there(76-83)...they had used a 6"x13" slot earlier...then went to the 3x13...they found, as PWK was fond of saying, "not a dime's worth of difference"...so they left it a 3x13 slot which gave more "body" to the motorboard...a "good thing"...it appears that they had something that determined that with the splitter mounted three inches from the motorboard throat slot, and that chamber being three inches deep, the areas to either side of the splitter ADDED TOGETHER formed a 6"x13" throat, anyway...due to the bifurcated pathway at that point...if I remember correctly...and that is why it made no real performance difference with the LaScala.

Either size would surely work, but with the narrower slot, you have more body to the motorboard. PWK, of course, being as he was, would "officially" stand by the mathematical formula answer of 6x13...but it was also PWK who said "leave it at 3x13...not a dime's worth of difference between the two in the testing or in the listening, we already have the new router forms made-up (3x13)and we will just go with them." He had apparently been intrigued by somebody else's studies about the motorboard throat openings on his speakers, and had decided to test out their findings...that is what led to the 3x13 slot to start with.

------------------

I can now receive private messages

This message has been edited by HDBRbuilder on 09-23-2002 at 06:30 AM

[edwardre]

John - I would be delighted to relieve you of those EV15WK's should you be interested.

------------------

Ed

[John Warren]

Ed-

sometime around the spring of 1983 they went into a

trash bin along with about 40 other raw drivers.

The stuff was all junk (still is).

John

[edwardre]

One man's junk.......could have been traded for another's junk.....I would have given 2 pristine K33's for them, to me THEY'RE junk.......

------------------

Ed

[John Warren]

the K33E is made to consumer audio standards but

gets the job done in the folded unit. In 1981, at a PWK seminar in Wellseley, MA (the Music Box) I heard Klipsch say that the K33E produced the most *natural sounding* bass he heard yet in the folded unit.

FWIW-Stephens designed every driver based on a *rule of proportions* for cone height, magnet weight, vc diameter, etc. Like Lansing, Stephens had no formal engineering training, he was a draftsman. But Lansing was a Genius, Stephens wasn't. For example, the *Fold-A-Flex* was a real eyebrow raiser. I heard a full factory unit at an MIT professors house in the late 70s. As I was listening, I realized that it was sort of sad to think that Bob Stephens advertised this as a revolutionary concept. The professor was laughing hysterically as we were listening to it, Fold-A-Flexing the louvers from a bass reflex to an infinite baffle. I immediatley became embarassed *for* poor Bob Stephens, asking myself just "what on Earth" was going thru Bob Stephens mind with this outrageously stupid concept.

PWK mentioned once that Stephens never really

knew what was going on ("one or two steps behind" was the quote).

This message has been edited by John Warren on 09-23-2002 at 08:32 PM

[edwardre]

Now John, of course PWK would have said "that the K33E produced the most *natural sounding* bass he heard yet in the folded unit." No disrespect to the man's integrity, but do you really think he's going to say something other than that when bottom line is selling product? Come on! Ha ha ha!

The thing that makes a forum work are the diversified perspectives of the members within. Regardless of the 'techno-measurements' that folks like to spout profusely, and despite the personal attributes of the company owner(s) is the real bottom line.....how does this unit sound to me in my listening environment. It is the 'unscientific testimonials' that I personally look for in a post. I can dig specs out till the cows come home, but they do not speak of the intangible qualities that most listeners look for especially when comparing the sound of one known speaker sound to that of a potential alternative.

Deriding a person's character for unconventional thinking then implying that because the person thinks differently signifies the total inability to produce a speaker that pleases, tends to reduce the weight one places upon the opinion.

Keep in mind that world history is based upon radical, unconventional, and at times seemingly ludicrous bass akwards concepts.....

------------------

Ed

[John Warren]

You don't get it. After his seminar I had a sidebar with him. I told him I owned a pair of early 60s Klipschorns and HE suggested that I swap out the 15WKs for the K33Es stating that the change was worth the effort. He told me that if I didn't like the way they sounded to return them to the store manager for a cash refund. He gave me his card and told me that I will want to call and thank him.

BTW, he was critical of the midrange and indicated more than once the midrange horn was an ongoing development effort. He stated that it was the difficult part of the sound spectrum to get right due to the bandwidth rqmnts of the Klipschorn, the physcial limitations of most compression drivers and the ears sensitivity in that range. Later that evening he mentioned that the Klipschorn midrange was an acceptable compromise between cost and performance.