kenratboy Posted September 22, 2002 Share Posted September 22, 2002 :::START LETTER::: Hello, I was hoping I would never have to write this letter (hence the desire to keep my credit card out of trouble) but here I am. Sigh... Right now, I have a JBL 4648A-8 bass (info - http://www.jblpro.com/pages/cinema/lfsub.htm ) system that I bought for $220 and am using for a sub, well, at +/- 3 dB., it is only good to 45 Hz.. I am driving it with a 180 watt sub amp (will be 250 watts at 4 ohms. Currently at 8 ohms.) Anyway, because of the weak amp and the lack of bass response from the bass enclose, I am very disappointed. I only listen to techno and electronic music, so low, hard, CLEAN bass is crucial to me. I know this material is getting into the 20 Hz. range. Here is where you come in. I am looking to ditch the JBL and get a single SVS CS-Ultra to take its place. What I need to know is: - My listening room is a cozy 13' X 13'6 X 9' (1580 cu. ft.) and for real listening, it is completely sealed (doors closed.) What sort of output and frequency response would I expect with 250 watts, and let's say all the power the sub wanted. I mean, with a SPL meter 1 meter away from my mains, I rarely go above 100 (NEVER over 110) decibels, would this sub keep up with 20-40 Hz. bass? - Will 250 watts do any harm (I will upgrade to a 800+ watt amp in the future and an active X-over) or seriously limit the Ultra? For MY room size, what will a decent (the Parts Express amp) 250 watts do for the Ultra? - The sub will ONLY be able to go one place for now. It is to the right of the speakers about 1/3 of the way over on the wall. It will be all the way against the wall. I will be about 8 feet from the sub. Will this be OK? So, should I force myself to buy a single Ultra now? Will it be able to kick my @$$? Thanks for the help! Kenneth Harden Reno, NV :::END LETTER::: Well, what do you think? Can any of you answer (or guess!) any of these questions? I am just getting get up with no bass. I need to kick my own @$$ so I can start to enjoy my music. ------------------ Receiver: Sony STR-DE675 CD player: Sony CDP-CX300 Turntable: Technics SL-J3 with Audio-Technica TR485U Speakers: JBL HLS-610 Subwoofer: JBL 4648A-8 Sub amp: Parts Express 180 watt Center/surrounds: Teac 3-way bookshelfs Yes, it sucks, but better to come. KLIPSCH soon! My computer is better than my stereo! For JBL related subjects and more fun, click: http://www.audioheritage.org Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justin_tx_16 Posted September 22, 2002 Share Posted September 22, 2002 quote: Originally posted by kenratboy: :::START LETTER::: Well, what do you think? Can any of you answer (or guess!) any of these questions? I am just getting get up with no bass. I need to kick my own @$$ so I can start to enjoy my music. How about this. You get the CS-Ultra sub and just use the parts express amp, then I kick you in the @ss so you can enjoy the music and not worry about what you are missing without the extra, 600ish watts ------------------ -justin SoundWise promediatech@Klipsch.com /1-888-554-5665 - RA# 800-554-7724 ext 5s> Email Me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenratboy Posted September 22, 2002 Author Share Posted September 22, 2002 So, is that a good or a bad thing? ------------------ Receiver: Sony STR-DE675 CD player: Sony CDP-CX300 Turntable: Technics SL-J3 with Audio-Technica TR485U Speakers: JBL HLS-610 Subwoofer: JBL 4648A-8 Sub amp: Parts Express 180 watt Center/surrounds: Teac 3-way bookshelfs Yes, it sucks, but better to come. KLIPSCH soon! My computer is better than my stereo! For JBL related subjects and more fun, click: http://www.audioheritage.org Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEAR Posted September 22, 2002 Share Posted September 22, 2002 Ken, You said your room is 13'X 13'6 X 9',and you dont often push the system beyond 100dB and never beyond a mere 110dB! This said tells me one SVS Ultra will do the job with no sweat using a 250W RMS power amp.16Hz and up you should be in the safe zone. You see my smaller room is 10' X 14' X 13'(cut in half,6.5' celling with an opening to the top section)so the volume is larger. And with two SVS Ultra subs powered by the mighty Carver TFM-75 I was reaching and besting reference(who reference DOH)120dB's even at 20Hz at listening position.Sure the amp coul deliver 1000W(yes 1KW)RMS into 4 Ohms but the meter never..ever wend over 600-700W on peaks!This said in your smaller room and if you listen below 110dB you WILL BE A OK. TheEAR(s)Now theears Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kain Posted September 22, 2002 Share Posted September 22, 2002 TheEAR, how much bass can a single SVS CS-Ultra (SVS SS driver) w/Samson S1000 amplifer output in a room that is about 14 feet by 14 feet and has a ceiling that is about 10-11 feet high? ------------------ Coming soon... Home Theater: TV: Samsung SP55W3HF (55" Rear-Projection 16:9) A/V Receiver: Denon AVC-A11SR (European version of Denon AVR-4802) DVD Player: Denon DVD-3800 Center: Klipsch RC-7 Mains: Klipsch RF-7s Surrounds: Klipsch RS-7s Subwoofer: Dual SVS CS-Ultras w/Samson S1000 amplifier Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenratboy Posted September 22, 2002 Author Share Posted September 22, 2002 Here is the responce I got: :::START LETTER::: Hi Kenneth, A CS_Ultra has about 97dB sensitivity. (corner loaded in an average size room). So a 250w amp would drive the CS_Ultra to 115-118dBs easily in your size room...with extension down to the 13-15hz range(if you used the Ultra in maximum extension mode). The PE amp should have ample clipping protection so you won't hurt the subwoofer...but you'll pick up another 2-3dB of clean headroom by moving up to a 450-500w amp down the road too. Having the amp 8ft ftom the sub will be fine...any decent 14g wire(for the amp to subwoofer connection)will work. If you thought the 250w amp was going to be a long term solution for you,I would save a few bucks and go with the 20-39CS+. This will sound nearly indentical to the CS_Ultra with 250w. Tom V. SVS :::END LETTER::: I respect a man who would do somthing like recommend a cheaper product. I still think I would go for the Ultra, it is only $200 more for a woofer that is amazing. 13-15 Hz.? WOW! 115-118 dB.? WOW! Now, for that peskey money part... ------------------ Receiver: Sony STR-DE675 CD player: Sony CDP-CX300 Turntable: Technics SL-J3 with Audio-Technica TR485U Speakers: JBL HLS-610 Subwoofer: JBL 4648A-8 Sub amp: Parts Express 180 watt Center/surrounds: Teac 3-way bookshelfs Yes, it sucks, but better to come. KLIPSCH soon! My computer is better than my stereo! For JBL related subjects and more fun, click: http://www.audioheritage.org Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dustin B Posted September 23, 2002 Share Posted September 23, 2002 Keep in mind he mentioned max extension mode for the 13-15hz extension. This means one of the three ports are plugged to drop the tune down to 16hz from 20hz. This will limit maximum output. With a 250W amp it likely won't be much of an issue, but if you get up to a 500W amp it likely will become an issue if the sub is pushed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
t-man Posted September 23, 2002 Share Posted September 23, 2002 Take Tom's advice and get the CS+. You will not hear the difference until you upgrade to a 500 plus watt amp. Even then, it will only be about 3 dbs at Max output. That $200 will be the cost of bragging rights only, and not a wise performance investment, when you can consider purchasing 10 new bass demo DVDs instead. I added 3-4 dbs to my sub by upgrading my amp, but I can't really hear the difference unless I'm pounding my sub beyond tolerable limits of my home's infrastructure. Hope this helps. T-man ------------------ KG 5.5 (mains) KLF-C7 (center) KG 1 (rears) SVS 20-39CS+ (sub) Aura Bass Shakers (pair) Crest LA601 sub amp Denon AVR 681/1601 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenratboy Posted September 23, 2002 Author Share Posted September 23, 2002 I mean, look at the difference in the woofers. I would think the Ultra's would be a lot better. But the $275 cost difference is pretty huge, if I could get $250 or more for my JBL, that would onlt make a <$400 difference. But I wonder how much better the Ultra is for my deep, lud bass desired. Someday (next year), I will get a MONSTER AMP and somthing like a Dual Ultra setup, eventually. I think for my bassish needs, I might go for the Ultra. But it gets back to the whole money thing... ------------------ Receiver: Sony STR-DE675 CD player: Sony CDP-CX300 Turntable: Technics SL-J3 with Audio-Technica TR485U Speakers: JBL HLS-610 Subwoofer: JBL 4648A-8 Sub amp: Parts Express 180 watt Center/surrounds: Teac 3-way bookshelfs Yes, it sucks, but better to come. KLIPSCH soon! My computer is better than my stereo! For JBL related subjects and more fun, click: http://www.audioheritage.org Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SNARFYrDOG Posted September 28, 2002 Share Posted September 28, 2002 Have you thought about an infinite baffle sub? http://www.f20.parsimony.net/forum36475/index.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klipsch-daddy Posted October 2, 2002 Share Posted October 2, 2002 kenratboy, I thought the JBL's were awesome. I remember reading something about this 4 months ago.?? Maybe if you get a better amp (parts express is cheap) it will take the driver to the voulme and bass response you want? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenratboy Posted October 2, 2002 Author Share Posted October 2, 2002 Guys, I wrote a review about the FMOD's on this part (subwoofer) of the forum. I tell all in there, 10 looked, no one responded. It is all there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HornEd Posted October 2, 2002 Share Posted October 2, 2002 Kenratboy, glad to see you got a movin' & grovin' avatar with a-peel... Entry level for an SVS sub is about 350 watts... so you won't be disappointed. While the Ultra represents the best value in manufactured subs that I have tried (and has the same sound components as their much more expensive top of the line)... the rest of their line is by no means shabby. I like choosing what I want to power my subs with... and, generally, an external amp will be more kick-*** than one that comes with the sub. The neat thing is that you can upgrade the amp at some future time... and the quality of your sub will improve accordingly. But, most of what an Ultra represents will be there for you at 250 watts in my experience. You know how to tell a pioneer? There usually the ones with the arrows in their back. Well, I was a pioneer with the Ultras, bought them "sound unheard"... but their are no arrows in my back... they delivered MORE than SVS promised. They are not only clean, bottom scraping and powerful, they are transparent in mating with either the six KLF-30's in the home theater but equally so with the Klipschorns in the music room. Take the plunge and be prepared to hear new things from your old sides and DVD's. -HornEd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenratboy Posted October 2, 2002 Author Share Posted October 2, 2002 The banana made me do it Yeah, if I got a SVS Ultra, the 1000 watt amp (Crown, QSC) would be following shortly after. I would take my PE amp and make a 12" sub for our HT system (we have a 8" Jamo now 8^( ), so, it would all work out in the end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forresthump2 Posted October 3, 2002 Share Posted October 3, 2002 Rat boy before you say that your JBL can do 25HZ no problem and now 45HZ? What happened from the second Coming thread to now? LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenratboy Posted October 4, 2002 Author Share Posted October 4, 2002 I am getting more demanding and I cannot corner load. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HornEd Posted October 4, 2002 Share Posted October 4, 2002 Ken, corner loading of an SVS Ultra delivers an extra 6dB to the top end of SPL's... and that is the equivalent gain that you would get by having a second Ultra just for finding a corner! Perhaps if you can't find one, you should build one. A stout false corner similar to what PWK had built for his own K-horns could double as a storage unit and provide a "kick-***" option to your room acoustics. Of course adding a second Ultra will also boost the top end even further... to more delight in my experience. Of course, corner loading can help any great subwoofer... but "boomy boxes" just get worse. Once you get to the top end performance of any subwoofer, you must double what you have for each 6dB of SPL increase. A corner, true or false, is a low cost way to double your potential. Of course, a sub can be engineered to put out higher SPL's at the expense of the subtle qualities of a truly fine sub. That's what most pro units do in order to toss out a bigger beat. Doing an A/B test comparing a pro sub designed for a club or amphitheater with a high end home sub can be very revealing... and win new respect for what a great home sub can deliver. No doubt that is why The Ear(s) picked the collection he has. I am in the process of designing a traveling Klipsch home theater that includes the speakers and the room that they play in. The intent is to use it to entertain groups of Renaissance friends in a free-standing portable theater when visiting faires across the country. It also eases the pain of being separated from my higher end Klipsch speakers. -HornEd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenratboy Posted October 5, 2002 Author Share Posted October 5, 2002 Hey, I have a 2' X 9' X 13' closet I don't use. I wonder... Home Depot, woofers, and amps... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jstanton8 Posted October 10, 2002 Share Posted October 10, 2002 What's an FMOD? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenratboy Posted October 10, 2002 Author Share Posted October 10, 2002 It is a 3" long device that goes inline with a RCA connection (in my application, between the SUB OUT on the receiver and the IN on my subwoofer) that filters out all the low bass (in my case, below 30 Hz.) they are about $25 a pair and come in all different configurations (low pass, hi pass, etc.) If you want more info, I am here. Or better yet, e-mail me (NOT private message) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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