NOZ Posted September 25, 2002 Share Posted September 25, 2002 Anyone know if older Harman Kardon tube amps are any good? There are a few floating around on E-bay, just wondering. Thanks Sean ------------------ NOZ SYSTEM DUAL USAGE ROOM Fronts & Mains: Klipsch La Scalas Center: Klipsch RC-7 Rears: Klipsch RS-7's Projector: Infocus LP350 Screen: Draper Premier 96" x 72" TV: Toshiba 37" DVD: Toshiba SD-3805 Receiver: Harman Kardon AVR 7000 CD: Sony CDP CX250 EQ: Harmon Kardon EQ-8 Sub: Dual SVS Ultras w/ Samson 1000 watt amp http://www.geocities.com/seanshometheatre/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted September 25, 2002 Share Posted September 25, 2002 I have never had or heard one but I bet like all the vintage stuff they have there good and bad models. Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOZ Posted September 26, 2002 Author Share Posted September 26, 2002 Anyone else??? ------------------ NOZ SYSTEM DUAL USAGE ROOM Fronts & Mains: Klipsch La Scalas Center: Klipsch RC-7 Rears: Klipsch RS-7's Projector: Infocus LP350 Screen: Draper Premier 96" x 72" TV: Toshiba 37" DVD: Toshiba SD-3805 Receiver: Harman Kardon AVR 7000 CD: Sony CDP CX250 EQ: Harmon Kardon EQ-8 Sub: Dual SVS Ultras w/ Samson 1000 watt amp http://www.geocities.com/seanshometheatre/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted September 26, 2002 Share Posted September 26, 2002 I think everyone skipped town figuring the site would be down today. ------------------ Deanf>s> High Fidelity f>s>c> This message has been edited by deang on 09-26-2002 at 03:23 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted September 26, 2002 Share Posted September 26, 2002 Dean, my old pal, edit your AA list. heh.... EL-84s? Loon. OF course, I guess you do have some EL-84s in the DJH. btw, you arent plugging that damn amp into your conditioner are you? This message has been edited by mobile homeless on 09-26-2002 at 03:34 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted September 26, 2002 Share Posted September 26, 2002 Well, the Monster HT1000 is basically a glorified power strip. Bad? Yeah, gee -- I hope EL-84's go in there, because that's what I'm running. ------------------ Deanf>s> High Fidelity f>s>c> This message has been edited by deang on 09-26-2002 at 03:38 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted September 26, 2002 Share Posted September 26, 2002 Try listening to your system with the amp plugged into it..... listen carefully and with wide variety of recordings... some good ones as well. Then listen to the same stuff with the amp plugged into its own dedicated outlet. The difference should be noticable if you have your system tweaked and set up. The tube amp via the conditioner should sound slightly more reeled in and a tad bit more compressed. The dynamics will be a little less free and loose... I have NEVER liked my tube amps into a conditioner no matter how expensive and what model. I have not tested it in awhile though. LAst time was with my buddy's Monster HTS-2000. The Moondogs were a definite NO GO here. I didnt even like the preamp in it! Felt the Rega was the least compromise. kh ps- Of course, if you have TERRIBLE power problems, you might feel differently. Still, I have found conditioners rob the tube amps of some of the things I find make them great. This message has been edited by mobile homeless on 09-26-2002 at 03:46 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted September 26, 2002 Share Posted September 26, 2002 This is certainly a revelation. Thanks for the tip. Did you see my post yesterday where I snagged that stock AE-3 and two Red-bases' off of AudiogoN almost as soon as they hit the site? Me was happy. ------------------ Deanf>s> High Fidelity f>s>c> This message has been edited by deang on 09-26-2002 at 03:54 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted September 26, 2002 Share Posted September 26, 2002 Many within this forum disagree here. In fact, there was a huge thread filled with angst concerning this very subject with some threatening my life with calls in the early AM..... I had to change zip codes... The wolverines were sent! I think two people here agreed with me. Still, I have tried over four quality conditioners in my home (various locales). The amps were ALWAYS compromised. I just had a discussion in another thread about this...with Mike82, who agreed. kh ps- yes, saw the AE-3 find. Almost surrpised you didnt try another pre to get a comparison. I think ole Chris Robinson might sell his. He was going to send it down here till he saw how bad I can procrastinate! This message has been edited by mobile homeless on 09-26-2002 at 04:04 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pland Posted September 28, 2002 Share Posted September 28, 2002 Hi NOZ, Yeah,they're good,at least in the case of the Citation II.Arguably the best Bass control and transformers of all vintage amps.I have one (currently being rebuilt by Jim Mc Shane),and to me,it's THE reference quality PP amp.It's more analytical than most vintage equipment,with enormous bandwidth. They've gotten expensive,as many were pirated for their trannys,and the remaining examples have gotten "discovered".Expect to pay over a grand. Great support via Jim Mc Shane(see his Citation web page)and Sheldon Stokes. If you get one,you won't ever get rid of it.Try to get a listen to one somehow. Pat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Landau Posted September 28, 2002 Share Posted September 28, 2002 The citation 2 is one of the best vintage tube amps around.It has very pleasent sound,excellent bass control and HUGE sounstage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOZ Posted September 28, 2002 Author Share Posted September 28, 2002 Thanks all, for the input. Sean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted September 28, 2002 Share Posted September 28, 2002 The Citation II is usually more hailed for its transformers than the sonics although I have never heard one. Would like to someday. Unfortunately, you wont see it on ebay too often and when you do, be prepared to pay new amp prices. What you DO see on ebay are the 300 and 500 series of integrateds as well as other lessor amps. The AWARD series is ok but the transformers are not nearly as nice as some of the other vintage options. They will cost less, however. Some of the tube choices are a bit harder to find, something you should keep in mind. To PLAND and Guy, I always wondered how sweet the citation II could really sound given the tube selection and design; I just have never really liked 6550 derivative tube amps really as this tube just doesnt have a ton of delicacy and sweetness. Granted, the power transformers are excellent, which does bring it on home but I still dont like this tube ultimately. Does the Citation II have SS rectification? I thought it did, which to me is another ultimate knock against the sweetness factor. Interested in hearing your comments here. kh ps-So far, the only thing I like better in this new forum is the search feature and less colored dancing smiley faces. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted September 28, 2002 Share Posted September 28, 2002 Ironically enough, I just got an email from someone offering this amp to me for a listen today. Interesting. I just have a hard time going back to the 6550/KT88 PP sound but havent heard this beast. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Landau Posted September 29, 2002 Share Posted September 29, 2002 Kelly, I don't like the 6550 as well and the beast has solid state rectifiers.A friend of mine bought one about 2 weeks ago and it sounded awesom.It had very sweet midrange (surprise) and a very big soundstage.When we've compared it to his kt88 based Antique sound labs amp.The ASL sounded thin and harsh by comparison(nearly like a solid state amp)and the Citation sounded sweet,big and airy. It is not as sweet nor as detailed as my Marantz model 2,but my amps are in a better shape and probably with better tubes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pland Posted September 29, 2002 Share Posted September 29, 2002 Hi Guys, Mobile,I actually think you'd love this amp.I bought mine just because it popped up locally,and was in excellent shape.I didn't know what to expect,especially after listening to Joe Rosen rip this amp in so many posts.I was floored!It doesn't have the detail of an SET in the mids,but compares very favorably with all the PP amps I've heard(including a carefully rebuilt Marantz 8B).Where it kills the rest of them is pace and control.I guarantee it will make you get up and pulsate around the room before you can stop yourself.Maybe I can get mine to you somehow when Jim is finished with it.I did switch to the EI KT-90's,and there is a definate synergy between this amp and this tube. I used to attribute a lot of the 6550 sound to the tube,and like you ,wasn't a fan.This amp changed my thinking.The thing that REALLY changed my opinion was listening to a SE 6550(you're reading this right)based amp built by Lee Roitberg,with an 83 mercury vapor rectifier.10 watts or so of very detailed,dynamic power.Twystd(Roe Fleenor)and Lee compared it to a pair of heavily modded Laurels,and at about 1/2 the price,it was a toss-up.I listened to this amp for about a month,and I can also say that it is more tube sensitive than any amp I've ever heard.Changes in outputs between NOS GE,EH6550 were dramatic,with the EH's getting the nod. Best, Pat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted September 29, 2002 Share Posted September 29, 2002 Pat, thanks for the interesting comments (you too, guy). My curiosity it definitely piqued on this. I hopped on Jim's citation pages as well and gave them a look. Are you electing to go with the triode mod he talks about? I imagine anyone with very efficient speakers might prefer the sweetness of this although not sure about the loss of boogie factor. I actually have not liked some PP amps re-wired in triode as they lose a bit of what I like about PP to begin with and dont achieve that full triode sound you hear in true triode tube amps, especially the 2A3. Still, the sweetness is welcome in many ways. I notice the Citation II has a pretty hefty feedback level with multiple stages amounting to a total of 30dB of feedback. That is actually quite a lot compared to some. I just have been moving further and further away from feedback use in all my amp (0 on SET and as low as possible with good power supply design with PP). I bet you some Jensen Copper foil oils would really be a nice addition to the Citation II. Is Jim also redoing the rectification stage? I know sending that amp to me would be a pain but I would LOVE to hear it as a comparison point and the other model I spoke of before is bone stock with original caps etc. If it did make it here, I would take plenty of good pics! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDBRbuilder Posted September 29, 2002 Share Posted September 29, 2002 Ok, before I say it, first the following disclaimer: This poster is NOT responsible for ANY computer, clothing, or blue carpet damage brought about when Kelly spews a mouthful of hot coffee out in an uncontrollable immediate fit of hysterical piteous laughter for me. I am well aware that he has a conceived notion that I have an out-of-contol obsessive/compulsive problem over my liking for Harman/Kardon stuff(which pales his OWN "Eico HF-21/compulsive" problem)...so, I am covering my patooty with this disclaimer PRIOR to typing my response below. Kelly, swallow that mouthful of coffee, put your mug down somewhere out of uncontrollable-arm-flailing-piteous-laughter-response reach....are you ready, Kelly? I hope so!! Here goes: For my first foray into the world of tubes, I have been seriously considering the CitationII (no news to Kelly, I bet!!!). I have never heard anything bad about them from those who have them or have listened to them. Quite the opposite, as a matter of fact!!! And, they are often going for reasonable prices here and there. OK, Kelly, you can grab that mug again!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Bean Posted September 29, 2002 Share Posted September 29, 2002 I have an H/K A-500 Award Series integrated {about 1960}that I use every day while my Conrad Johnson sits an the shelf. It uses rare 7355s for outputs and it sounds just so fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pland Posted September 30, 2002 Share Posted September 30, 2002 Kelly, I actually ordered some Audionote PIO caps thinking that it would "sweeten" up the mid range and improve transparency over the old original caps.Both Jim Mc Shane and Eli Dutmann suggested that it wasn't worth the expense,as the high amount of nfb averages out the sound of the parts in this circuit.Since the damn thing sounds so good,and since I had heretofore preferred no nfb and tube rectification,I figured I'd shut up and let Jim(sort of a Citation guru)make the parts call based on experience.He's using Auricaps,which I like anyway. I'm not going the triode wiring route because I like the gutsy nature of this amp,and I don't want to screw with success.I just don't think PP amps approach DHT's anyway in midrange presentation,which is why my other system is SET. I'm having Jim do the whole PS rebuild(level 1 and 2),and a complete overhaul and rebuild.I like this amp so much that wanted a spare no expense long range approach so I can enjoy it without having to tinker with it. I'll figure out some way to get it over to you later this year when he's finished and I'm back in the States. Off topic,I need a good (but not pro quality)digital camera,and the Olympus CR3020 looks good feature-wise.Your thoughts? Best, Pat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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