What exactly is timbre matching?

[PHIL O]

Can somebody help me out with this whole timbre matching thing? What is it? Does it have something to do with matching speaker brands, or speaker series or speaker sizes?

[JohnA]

Matched timbre is matched sound. You won't get it mixing brands. It is needed so that a voice or other sound moving from left to center to right does not change tone as it moves. Theefore, you don't realize the voice changes speakers. It sounds like the orator is just walking around.

John

[WMcD]

My understanding is that musicians use the term to describe the sound of an instrument. Many of them can sound an A above middle C at 440 Hz, for example. That is the fundamental frequency. However, all real instruments also generate harmonics at octaves higher. These give the character of the sound of the instrument.

In the loudspeaker business were talking about something similar. No loudspeaker has perfect frequency response. Ones of the same design with reasonable quality control do sound the same, having the same frequency response.

The issue comes up when we are using multi channel play back. The most elementry is two channel stereo. It only makes sense that the two speakers be of the same design. They must be matched, even if neither is perfect. Of course we always buy matched stereo speakers.

These days, we are dealing more often with recording and playback systems with three speakers in front, and independent record and playback feeding them. Recording engineers capitalize on the capability of the system to "pan" the sound. For example, an actor moves from left to center to right. If the center channel speaker has a different response than the flanking units, at least in the most critical frequencies, there can be an anomaly during the pan.

A tough part is that in Home Theater systems, the center speaker (and surrounds) often must be small because of esthetics or money. The most logical solution is to use the same type of speaker as the flanking ones. A fallback is to make sure the center (or surround) uses the same mid and high frequency units, which match. Hence giving the same timbre, in the pan.

A related problem is with surround speakers. There are issues of dispursion, etc. Still, to a large extent we'd like them to have a matching response. So matching treble response can be important.

To generalize, in multi channel playback, it most important to have identical speakers, i.e. timbre matched, in the mid and treble. We can play some games in the bass, since that is not heard as giving directional clues to our hearing.

It is probably fair to say that timbre matching means the speakers have nearly identical response in the midrange and treble. This is why more recent Klipsch speaker for HT use the same sort of tratrix horn. When people set up systems with Heritage speakers, they choose ones with the same midrange and tweeters.

Gil

[PHIL O]

Thanx for that thorough explanation, now I have a pretty good idea of what kind of speakers I can use for my rear sound.

[HDBRbuilder]

Geez!!! Us ole Arkies get learned somethin new ever day!! Shoot fire!! I always was told that timber matching was when ya found two trees the same height and diameter close together, then ya cut em down...both at the same time so that they fall in the same direction!!...that way they hit the ground at the same time and ya only have to holler "Timber!!!" once cause they are timber-matched!!

[BBB]

I agree HD but the question is this. If the two trees hit the ground at the same time and no one is around to hear it does that mean that both trees didnt make a sound or are they two separate but equal sounds nobody heard?

[jtkinney]

Or, if they fall the opposite direction, does their opposite phase cancel the sound?

[lynnm]

Corollary #3

If a man is in a forest and he makes a comment and his wife isn't there to hear him -

Is he still wrong ?

[WMcD]

It occurs to me that we might be leaning into the jargon of the salesman. "Timbre matching" and the like. Makes it sound like music and techno babble at the same time.

PWK said, "we live in the mid range." That is where our hearing is most acute. (Yeah, I know, a lot of us live in the bass, too.)

So the issue with timbre matching is simply matched treble response. Let's say above 1000 cycles per second, as a rough number. It is fortunate that the horns and drivers in this range are not particularly large or expensive. So there is no reason to compromise by going to direct radiators.

Gil

[boa12]

gil, what you mean by "compromise w/ direct radiators"? directs like say the rf-3, rb-5, or rc-3 use the same or timbre-wise the same horns. but as far as timbre goes i would think a better case is made for directs, because, well, the sound is direct & not dispersed/reflected.

that's the other thing, besides matching drivers, that affects timbre to the ear. the room & where the sound is coming from in relation to the ear position. iow, you could have the exact same speakers in front & rear of the room, but the timbre won't be exactly matched because of their location & the room.

no biggy, but that's another variable for timbre. but that's a given. still best to use matching speaks when possible.

[WMcD]

I'n not down on direct radiator bass at all. Or Reference or Synergy. I happen to like my Forte II and Quartets.

Timbre matching, to me, implies that we have a situation where we just can't, or don't want to, use identical speakers systems. The issue is often size. And size implies the bass driver. Happily, the treble can be matched at a reasonable size and cost.

I was thinking about PWK saying that a Heresy is two-thirds of a K-Horn. In a similar vein, the center and surrounds in an HT system can be two-thirds or maybe one-half of the main units. Simply meaning that they do share the tratrix treble unit.

It seems to me that much of the good effect of the treble horn is to allow treble or timbre matching in different settings, i.e. at a wall or corner, or sitting on top of a tube. But this probably mostly achieved because the treble horns are directional and don't allow reflections off the wall, etc.

Going back to the earlier issue, the direct radiator issue I was thinking of was where the buyer sees the big old three way horn system and goes to another brand with direct radiator treble. The ultimate compromise. Of course if this happens, the buyer should be on the look out for matched treble drivers. I see that other manufacturers do that too.

In answering the question I wanted not to be too partisan. The timbre matching issue is common to all designs.

Gil

[Manuel Delaflor]

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On 10/9/2002 7:40:47 PM lynnm wrote:

Corollary #3

If a man is in a forest and he makes a comment and his wife isn't there to hear him -

Is he still wrong ?

----------------

ROTFLMAO!!!

[boa12]

gil, sorry thought you were talking the upper freq, horns w/ direct; &, direct vs reflecting. but looks like you're talkin woofs. figured you had no complaint against directs w/ your klipsch.

[WMcD]

No offense taken.

Thinking about this some more . . . it is just that the timbre matched issue only comes up when we are mixing speaker systems with different designs. If someone buys two, three, four, five, all of the identical design, the marketing people don't say they are matched, timbre or otherwise.

Therefore, timbre matching caught me as introducing the situation where the bass units are different because of size or cost issues, and the treble are, or should be, the same or similar.

Gil

[marksdad]

dont forget to use your spl meter, it helps move fluidly, but do listen to these guys, they are really knowlagable

[boa12]

gil, THX the self-proclaimed king of 5.1 & timbre matching has its roots from the standard of using 5 identicle speakers (smaller satellite speaks) & a sub. & for the sub to handle low bass up to 80hz as well as all LFE (speced to around 120hz). many digital receivers these days are still speced according to this scheme.

as you can see things have progressed from there pretty much leaving thx behind.

at least here. some day i hope to have khorn fronts, a belle or lascala center, & use my existing cornwalls & klf-30 for surrounds & rear surrounds respectively. & i still won't be cutting

those at a high 80hz. the only wild card i think here for a great timbre match would be the klf-30 because of the tactrix horn.

[WMcD]

I think Boa and I are arguing (if that) over something we agree upon.

My observation is that in many set ups, we have speaker systems which are not uniform above the sub, and up to wherever the mid or treble takes over. But, fortunately, the mid and treble drivers and horns can be closely matched or identical.

Gil

[boa12]

gil, oh yes i agree that we agree.