No Disc Posted October 9, 2002 Share Posted October 9, 2002 Mobile - That's a very interesting observation about cable length. I am in the process of changing my equipment layout so I can move to shorter wire... but since you made that statement I have to ask myself if it will be worth it or not. I guess I am just going to have to try it and listen to how it sounds. I would hope going from 16 ft. of Monster Cable to Short (4 ft.) biwire mid-grade AQ cable would be superior sounding. - tb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JCturboT Posted October 9, 2002 Author Share Posted October 9, 2002 ---------------- On 10/9/2002 1:06:25 PM mobile homeless wrote: btw, I will repeat, you can do a lot better with other speaker wire choices over AudioQuest, something to really consider, sale or no sale. Mobile, Ok-I'll bite...just what cable do you recommend with Klipsch horns? Any cable any better for solid state or with tubes? Jeff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted October 9, 2002 Share Posted October 9, 2002 JCturboT, I thought I would of heard from you with a report card by now. What's up ?? Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazman Posted October 10, 2002 Share Posted October 10, 2002 jcturbo and all, FYI, as far as I know, all AQ speaker wire is sold by length, unterminated. You and your dealer work out how it's connected and they install the connectors. AQ recommends a very tight application of whatever connectors you select, they call it a "cold weld". The below quote is from their web site and I'm sure it's why they install the connectors. "When a connection is crimped hard enough to cause the metals to deform, to change shape, the area of contact becomes a "gas-tight" connection or a "cold weld." I have not found my "definitive" speaker cable. The Bedrocks I currently use with my system produce good detail, are very smooth, certainly not harsh or grainy. Assembling any system is a balancing act of all components involved, including speaker cable. All of my component interconnects are pure silver, not silver plated copper, which can make a system sensitive in it's high frequency presentation. I think the AQ Bedrock combined with the silver interconnects provide a very balanced presentation of music from my system. I did not expect these were the last speaker cable purchase I'd ever make for my SET system. I do know they are working well within the boundaries of my system, though I'm sure there are many additional levels of performance to be attained with future cable upgrades, I am very satisfied with them. Your system and it's components will certainly influence your satisfaction or dissatisfaction with AQ product offerings. BTW, I'm always open to consider a higher quality/higher performance speaker cable that I can afford. Those of you who feel you have found that definitive speaker cable, please SHARE! I can make a list for future auditions. Klipsch out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted October 10, 2002 Share Posted October 10, 2002 FWIW I have found that silver speaker cable (Synergistic in my case but they are now out of production) works the best with my Heresies. Actually I picked this up from Tony who had tried dozens of cables for his KHorns before alighting on these. Warning - they were not cheap (although I suppose that depends on your relative valuations of things). Suffice to say the cables cost me 50% of the speaker cost. Having just switched over cables on the Sansui's to these as well (from cheapo monster) I can tell you they have made a significant difference there as well. I concur with Kelly that speaker cable selection is highly dependent on the equipment being used. The same synergistics used on a pair of 989's really fouled the sound up no end (bad news for Tony as he is still hunting for a proper match and he has had the speakers almost a year now). I should add that I am mystified as to why a longer cable should sound better than a shorter cable having always worked on the basis that with cheaper cable the shorter the run the better and with more expensive cable the only difference should be that it is less sensitive to longer runs (i.e. there should be less degradation of the sound - not an improvment!!). Funny thing this audio business. BTW - what is with all the name calling all of the sudden? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted October 10, 2002 Share Posted October 10, 2002 I myself was interested in my own findings on this length issue and did some searching and sure didnt come across too many others to back me up. There was a reference to Pierre Sprey of Mapleshade Records who stated that he thought almost all speaker cables sounded better with no less than the minimum length of 8 feet. Another theorized the following: I suppose you might get the impression that a minimum length cable might be better with some amplifiers. This is because the longer cable provides a minimum load that might be required to keep the amp from oscillating. Also, if there is global feedback, the time-constant of the length of the cable might prevent some high-frequency reflections from affecting the amps performance and linearity. This is speculation of course, but these are a few possible technical explanations. Yeah, well, I dont know how far I want to take that explanation... I am sure many think this finding hard to explain. I will just tell you that it is what I have experienced, even if it countered quite often elsewhere. I have come to trust my ears somewhat in spite of others. I remember in 1989-90, I went around praising the virtues of these 8w tube single-ended amps I had heard. Heh, I dont think one person I talked to believed me at the time and most thought I was off my rocking horse on the matter. It wasnt until four or five years later that you really started to hear of SET in the mainstream audio press ala Stereophile. Indeed, I started to wonder myself why no one was talking about this amazing sound when it appeared so vastly different than anything I had heard before. As for the speaker cable length opinion, who knows. One thing is for sure, I would avoid LONG interconnects of shoddy quality. If you are going to run your amps next to your speakers, you will need some quality IC if running serious lengths. Perhaps I might give the short speaker cable another go around. As is, most of my speaker cables are in the 5-8ft range with the majority landing at 8ft. I find it a good compromise if I want to move amps or place my wire away from power sources or IC. Another controversial topic within this forum is elevating your cables. I am a firm believer in this as well. At least this is starting to become rather acccepted. I found this benefit way back in '90 and have been doing it ever since (along with keeping my IC and speaker wire apart with both away from power cords - none of it coiled). All these little details start to add up. Let the naysayers turn their cheeks. AGain, this is just my experience over the years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted October 10, 2002 Share Posted October 10, 2002 "I have come to trust my ears somewhat in spite of others." Me too. Hence Sansui speakers in the living room and Heresy's in the Study... Just playing with you. BTW - never tried raising speaker cables off the floor. If it does make a difference it implies a problem with the cable shielding which would infuriate me bearing in mind what I paid for these damn things!! One day I will pull the stereo out and sort out the spagetti of cables behind it. Right now everything runs alongside everything else and it has all got intertwined in the evil way that cables do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted October 10, 2002 Share Posted October 10, 2002 Indeed. I respect you for that regarding the Sansui speakers. IT is what I would do in your case if that was the findings (after seeing if I had been drinking Rob Roys....heh). I REALLY recommend you getting your wiring hell sorted out. HAving power cords all over IC and speaker wire is really a no go. Ditto with having your IC and power cables taped together or running parallel. As stated, this stuff really does add up. As for bringing the cable off the floor, the floor acts the same as the insulation with carpet and other plastics interacting, regardless of the insulation material. This is a simple test to try. Here are some other comments relating to speaker cable length I found a while ago: When you go from a long run ( 15 ft per side ) of a high capacitance cable ( Goertz MI-2's with Zoebel's ) to a short run ( less than 48" ) of even higher capacitance cables ( Goertz MI-3's with Zoebel's ) and get poorer performance ???? I'm pretty sure that the MI-3's are not THAT much more capacitive to make up for 11' of similarly designed cable of a slightly smaller gauge. Nelson Pass has also documented that specific installations may benefit from a longer run of cables on the Pass Labs website. The cables themselves are acting as impedance transformers and "buffering" the amp from a very difficult load. J. Peter Moncrieff has also documented that some amps will change frequency responses due to various loading conditions presented by specific speaker cables / speaker combo's. Since that is the case, couldn't altering the line length ( which would play with phase angles and impedances ) also alter the frequency response ( for better or worse ) ??? Isn't it possible that a longer cable might "help" the system in such cases? Interesting...I am finally turning up a few more thoughts on the matter. I am not really convinced one way or the other... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JCturboT Posted October 10, 2002 Author Share Posted October 10, 2002 ---------------- On 10/9/2002 8:57:51 PM NOS440 wrote: JCturboT, I thought I would of heard from you with a report card by now. What's up ?? Craig, Sorry-I meant to get in touch with you earlier but its been crazy this week.I will post a review soon. Jeff Craig ---------------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Disc Posted October 10, 2002 Share Posted October 10, 2002 I concur with Mobile on his findings on raising the speaker cable off the floor. Since I have other computer equipment and power cords all over the place it made sense to get them away from all that interference. I also found that cable, when supported by a human host, yielded even more sonic benefits. Honey, just hold it there just a little longer till the song is over... - tb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted October 10, 2002 Share Posted October 10, 2002 "When you go from a long run ( 15 ft per side ) of a high capacitance cable ( Goertz MI-2's with Zoebel's ) to a short run ( less than 48" ) of even higher capacitance cables ( Goertz MI-3's with Zoebel's ) and get poorer performance ???? I'm pretty sure that the MI-3's are not THAT much more capacitive to make up for 11' of similarly designed cable of a slightly smaller gauge." Kelly - that is a comparison of 2 different types of cables at longer and shorter length rather than a comparison of a single type of cable with varying lengths at which the longer length yields better sonics. I can see that if we are talking about extremes of length where cable resistance comes into play you could "help" the speaker by reducing the watts it is subjected to from an over-enthusiastic turn of the volume knob on an amp. For any other effect to come into play we would have to reason that the cable is flavouring the music and that therefore there is an optimum length required for the flavouring to take effect assuming that it is a pleasant addition. Possible I suppose... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted October 10, 2002 Share Posted October 10, 2002 Well, the real lines to quote are after that... more loading/buffering and not with LONG runs reducing watts which is really not implied in the above quotes since that is not what is going on in my view. Still, one can disregard these opinions as many here will do. Indeed, I am not closed off to once again trying shorter lengths of cable as stated. But so far, 3ft lengths of most everything I have tried has been less appealing to me sonically then longer lengths, and this after WANTING TO HAVE shorter length cables in every way, not the least of which is price-wise. Controversial? Yes. Fact? Who knows; it probably depends greatly on the amp and speaker at hand, as well as cable. Curiosity will not stop here. PS- When I say LONGer runs, I am talking in the 8ft or so range... Dont get me wrong; running 30ft of speaker cable is not what I am referring to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunnysal Posted October 10, 2002 Share Posted October 10, 2002 I haven't done anything scientific re: cable length but I too found a strange preference for longer cables over shorter between my mono-blocks and my k-horns. of course they were differente cables BUT the shorter set were Cardas Cross cables and the longer ones Audioquest type 4s, I would have predicted the short Cardas (1M) would sound "better" but nope...I prefered the sound of the cheaper, longer audioquest 4s (2.5M)...wierd huh? just goes to show that one needs to put everything together and hear it as a unit to make decisions re: equipment. regards, tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Disc Posted October 10, 2002 Share Posted October 10, 2002 Based on this information I've canceled my AA order of AQ Slate wire and gone with a longer (25ft) run of AQ type 4. This will be for my Klipsch RB 5 IIs. I'm still undecided on what to use with my Cornwalls. My last post tongue-in-cheek comments aside, I do intend to route the AQ type 4 off the floor and wonder what various methods people use to accomplish this. I would rather have a clean look to it and not a hack job... I curious what others have done to have longer cable runs and have a clean look to it? Any ideas out there other than duck tape? - tb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted October 10, 2002 Share Posted October 10, 2002 I hope the AQ Type 4 was REALLY cheap as I didnt really like this cable as much as the host of others did in Stereophile and other places. This version of AQ cable sounds thick to me and more ponderous. Also, as I edited the post above, 25ft is not something I have ever aimed for, especially with tube amplification. I got good results running longer IC but they have to be of VERY good quality, which is expensive. Hell, one of the ALL TIME best systems I have ever heard utilized Purist Audio Design Maximus "water" cable with the IC at 30ft and the speaker cable at 6ft. IT was 89-90. I still regard this PAD cable as some of the smoothest, most relaxed, and life-like cable I ever heard. I heard this same system with Kimber Silver and top of the line XLO of that day. The PAD cables were on another level. How this fluid affected the cable over time is a bit of a question, however. Regarding the methods to raise the cable off the floor, I have tried all SORTS of things, most of them strange. My current method is using those ceramic or glass insulators you see on vintage telephone poles. These look funky enough and are cheap at Flea Markets - it always brings interesting comments. With 8ft, only one or two is needed depending on how you have it setup. In another system, I used porcelain EGG CUPS that worked fine and, once again, brought many curious remarks. Along the way, I have used even strange methods. If anyone every bought GRADO cartridges in the 80s and early 90s, they remember the little cardboard tube they came in. Believe it or not, I used these things for all sorts of wacky projects. I would FILL them with sand, and spray paint them black, then use them under gear and as cable risers. Yep, I told you. Wacky. If fact, if you see my avatar, you will notice one of my EICO HF-81 sitting atop a HFT-90 tuner....with none other than four of those damn sand-filled, black GRADO cartridge tubes! heh.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T2K Posted October 10, 2002 Share Posted October 10, 2002 http://www.mapleshaderecords.com/tweaks/cablelifts.html Keith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted October 10, 2002 Share Posted October 10, 2002 Yeah, I saw those. To bad those tripods arent exactly mindblowingly beautiful, unfortunately. Bad aspect #2: They actually cost more than $3. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Disc Posted October 10, 2002 Share Posted October 10, 2002 I think these are close to what Mobile was talking about. These cost more than $20, but where else to get things like this? http://www.audionut.com/pk4/store.pl?section=6 - tb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Lindsey Posted October 10, 2002 Share Posted October 10, 2002 I just ordered a 12' pair of bi-wired AQ Slate from AA. I will let you what I think of the wire after a couple of weeks of use. If it's no better than my Home Depot 12ga (which sounds awfully good at the moment), I doubt if I will ever spend the ducats on wire again. It's too much hit and miss imho... Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted October 10, 2002 Share Posted October 10, 2002 Take a look. These are all over the US in flea markets and junk shops in many colors and styles. A simple run down to the nearest place and I had six for under $10. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=720743893 Ummmm...Mike, I wouldnt be so quick to jump to conclusions regarding the wire if that pair does not work out. Wire choices once your system is really tweaked can take on component-like improvements in the sound. I cannot vouch for the AQ Slate, but writing all cable off is not going to win any battles either. I ordered six different cables from The CAble Company to audition the last time I was taking a sampling. You get the wire for two weeks and the 10% deposit goes towards a purchase of anything from the company, be it wire, cartridges, or components. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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