Chris Robinson Posted October 21, 2002 Share Posted October 21, 2002 Craig, you're very nice to offer you help. I'll email you shortly. I'm heading out the door to Chicago, back tomorrow night. I'll pack and ship this on Wednesday. Many thanks again. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clipped and Shorn Posted October 21, 2002 Share Posted October 21, 2002 I was serious guys. What is the concept of the TT stand and what considerations for designing and building one. Thanks. -c&s Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audio Flynn Posted October 21, 2002 Share Posted October 21, 2002 This could get more controversial than interconnects and speaker wire. Have not done the turntable thing in over 10 years. Read something about... 1. Wall hanging rack to avoid floor vibations 2. inner tube under the table with only a few psi of pressure on top of a sand bag. This souded like a cheap option to try. Other people wil have better defined ideas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike stehr Posted October 21, 2002 Share Posted October 21, 2002 Craig, There appears to be three carbon films parked in there, next to the Sprague 716p's that are in the unit. They have the color bands, and the other ones usually just have the value printed on them, except those weird green ones. (These Eico kits and their various parts that came with them, I'll I can say is who knows.) I guess your gonna find out! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted October 21, 2002 Share Posted October 21, 2002 Mike, Your correct those are carbon film and they are the exact same ones as in my HF-81. They must have used them in at least some of these kits. Kelly seems to think that the Metal films that I use are harsh and I agree they are after they are first installed but give them a good break in period and the harshness disapeers. I believe Mike Lindsay has the same ones in his amp and he loves his phono stage. Edster's amp I believe has the stock carbons still in there or is it vise versa. I think I'm getting old Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike stehr Posted October 21, 2002 Share Posted October 21, 2002 I noticed the same thing with carbon films. (Harsh at first, then better as break-in occurs.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted October 21, 2002 Author Share Posted October 21, 2002 Always thought Angela Instruments had a pretty good assessment of caps and resistors, not going too far over the top. I tend to agree with this by and large from my own listening using these various types. I do agree that some parts of the circuit deserve special attention. But here are some of the RESISTOR COMMENTS. Give it a read - some good observations. Dont let the guitar amp references scare you guys - I really think the modern carbons offer best of both worlds - warmth, detail, and no drift - Kiwame are about $1 a piece: RESISTOR COMMENTS From Angela Instruments In my opinion, generic metal films, commonly available from Mouser, Digi-Key, Radio Shack, etc. are to be avoided, even for economy conscious repairs. Sadly, most new mass market guitar amps and audio components are made with these generic metal films. The bad rap hung on metal films for being "spikey" and "cold" comes, mainly I think, from the sonic character of these cheap resistors. Worse, I've seen numerous failures in service, especially in guitar amps and other gear that gets rough handling. Military ("Mil. Spec.") metal film resistors, available at government auction, hamfests, surplus dealers, etc. can offer good sound quality and excellent reliability for a very cheap price. If you're building on a restricted budget, these are an OK choice for hi-fi but maybe not for vintage Fender style guitar amps. On the other hand, some great British guitar amps were built with British military metal film resitors. Do be careful of the somewhat cryptic ratings printed on these Mil. Spec. parts; if you're not sure what you're getting, don't use 'em. Check every resistor with a meter before you solder 'em in place. Audiophile metal film resistors, including Resista, Holco, Beyschlag, etc. really do sound OK for hi-fi. Use 'em where tight value matching, long term reliability and temperature stability are important. You'll get great high-end detail, extension and imaging. On the other hand, compared to carbons, you'll sacrifice some of the warmth many of us love in old vintage gear. Also be aware of the warnings about bending the leads of Holco audiophile metal film resistors too close to the body or you may stress the end cap/lead welds, possibly (some claim...) resulting in noise. Metal oxide types from Mouser, etc. are best used only in power supplies when a high wattage rating is required in a small package. I usually avoid using these resistors in signal positions, since they seem to give a somewhat 'washed out' and grainy sounding midrange. Premium non-inductive wirewounds sound excellent in audio circuits but it's hard to find a supplier stocking a range of values wide enough to build an entire circuit. If somebody out there knows of a good source for these, please let me know. Industrial wirewounds by Dale, Ohmite Brown Devil and others are OK for power supplies and some hobbyists do like these in signal positions as well. Metal foil resistors, the "sound of the '80s" High-End", are favored by many audionuts but, in this elevated price class, I prefer the sound of Tantalums and Rikens. Vintage carbon resistors by Allen Bradley, Stackpole, etc. sound very nice to me but tolerances are poor, as is temperature stability. Accordingly, it's difficult to get a stereo circuit properly balanced, so imaging will suffer somewhat, compared to the other signal resistor types we recommend There's also the issue of noise, not objectionable to my ear in most power amp circuits but probably too much for a phono stage? Still, these antique resistors are the most authentic choice for restoration of vintage guitar amps and hi-fi. More than just for authentic looks, they preserve the signature sounds of a bygone era. Quality carbon composition resistors will soon be almost impossible to find in a wide range of values, so get 'em while you can. We've been told that Allen Bradley has ceased production. My advice is also to test each and every carbon resistor you intend to use, and scrape the leads before you solder. Your old local electronics supply or TV/Radio repair store may have a good stock of carbon resistors on hand, usually at very cheap prices. Hamfests and government surplus sales are other good sources. Riken Ohm carbon film resistors are my personal favorite; the sound approaches the warmth of vintage carbon types but without the noise and drift. I'd be happy to use nothing but Rikens if I could get every value and wattage rated needed for my projects. I love the sound of Rikens in both hi-fi and guitar amps. Tantalums are a real mystery to me. Tantalum capacitors sound terrible in most audio circuits but Tantalum resistors sound fantastic; warmth and detail abound! We've attempted to obtain more technical information about these resistors from the manufacturer but our requests are always ignored. The rumor is that production has ceased, so my suggestion is to get them while you still can. My listening experiences with Audio Note gear led me to try tants in my own hi-fi projects. If you want to gracefully extract the last bit of information from an audio circuit, and your budget can stand it, this is a fun resistor to experiment with. Some good stuff to think about. I have Audio Note Tantalums in my 2A3 Monoblocks but would not go the expense of putting in vintage. A new brand that gets some good comments is Kiwame Resistors which are about $1 a piece. These are getting used in vintage and SET amps all over. Some good comments. Smooth, revealing, not harsh, and no drift. kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted October 22, 2002 Share Posted October 22, 2002 Actaually I'm using Xicon 1% at this time and really don't think they sound bad at all once there broke in. The problem with the Vishay or Kiwana's hardly anyone stocks all the required values. The places that do stock them at all are over charging and that's why there $1 a peice. Let me know every place you know of that stocks these resistors and we can give them a whirl ! Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Lindsey Posted October 22, 2002 Share Posted October 22, 2002 ---------------- On 10/21/2002 4:31:31 PM Clipped and Shorn wrote: I was serious guys. What is the concept of the TT stand and what considerations for designing and building one. Thanks. -c&s ---------------- Clipped, I am using a Dual CS-5000 w/Shure V15V-MR and it is on a wooden shelf (see pic below) that is not deep enough for the front legs to sit on the shelf completely. I decided to get the Daruma Roller Balls (you can see them under the TT) that Edster recommended about 4 months ago. I am amazed by these little guys. My TT has played at 110db with the bass from the La Scala's just pounding, and there is no noise coming from the table! There are many places to get them, including $50 - $75 used from Audiogon. They retail for $99 new and they come in a set of 3. They can also be used under your CD player, which is where Ed used them and said they made a big difference. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted October 22, 2002 Author Share Posted October 22, 2002 All above, see this interesting page with some CHEAP DIY options. Read through the entire page. http://indigo.ie/~walton/spoon.html kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clipped and Shorn Posted October 22, 2002 Share Posted October 22, 2002 Mike, Those roller balls are intriguing, not sure I quite get the concept yet, but it looks like you have them in some kind of assymetrical arrangement under the TT. What keeps the TT from rolling off the shelf ? OK, I think I get it, the cup holds the TT in place, and the balls absorb the finer vibrations thus isolating the TT, or something like that. Still hard for me to picture exactly in my mind, how this thing works. -c&s Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted October 22, 2002 Author Share Posted October 22, 2002 See the page I just linked above your post, Clipped. Also with sig, take the space out between the top and first component. Also, remove that LAST little hyphen and your set to go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clipped and Shorn Posted October 22, 2002 Share Posted October 22, 2002 OK, with that spoon and marble deal, do the TT feet then rest right on the balls or is a piece of MDF or Plywood put in between. Still do not understand why the TT doesn't roll off when you touch it. -C&S Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted October 22, 2002 Author Share Posted October 22, 2002 Quote from that ball and spoon page. See details about cycle tire inner tube as well. I mentioned an air bladder box on ebay for less than 100 too. Did you see it? You can inflate the bladders and level it too. SEE BOTTOM OF THIS POST. Next is a suitable base for holding the spoon bowl ...and what better than those cups that are available for under table or chair legs to prevent making the floor. I used 40mm ones. Now on this you place a piece of MDF, as the equipment base...and watch the whole thing swing and sway.....but no - the gear dosn't fall off! Now I wont give you assembly instructions as it is all self evident!!!! But it just goes to show what you can do with four spoons and four marbles. The whloe assembly then takes on its own character and becomes like a lump of jelly. But the effectiveness of its isolation properties are well worth the experiment. Hey if you like - just go to your kitchen and get four spoons and rob your kids marbles and use some putty to make a base for the spoons. Yes we are all mad! Sure to keep you occupied for many hours! But now for the real killer set-up.....the Special Edition Model....Use a bicycle inner tube slightly inflated, place a piece of MDF as a base on it, then add the Spoons. This has got to be seen to be believed! Talk about wobbly...but a superb form of isolation in a suitation where neither one on its own was sucessful. It is advisable to put a small bore tube or stiff straw to allow the air contained within the cycle tube and the MDF to escape - otherwise you will just be compressing the air that is contained within this otherwise airtight combination. It's a little confusing and a bit ugly too. I would have to mod it to make it look as nice as the table. See turntable base with airbladder. Interesting idea and makes sense. Look nice too. GO HERE TO SEE. Sorry about that bad MIDI file. Hit STOP on that page! http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1387580781 kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Lindsey Posted October 22, 2002 Share Posted October 22, 2002 Here you go... http://www.gcaudio.com/infodaruma.htm Here's one for sell at $80 w/shipping included... http://cgi.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cl.pl?accstwek&1038456459 Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clipped and Shorn Posted October 22, 2002 Share Posted October 22, 2002 mh, tnx for the lnks. That isolation box on eBay looks interesting. I wonder if you have to patch the tire leaks every once in awhile if you run over a bull thorn...... What was confusing to me was comparing the diy yater spoons+marble deal with the picture that Mike L. posted of his balls. -c&s Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazman Posted October 22, 2002 Share Posted October 22, 2002 Clipped, Somehow I think there are two seperate issues here that can have different solutions or approaches. Isolation of turntable from vibrations introduced through the foundations on which it rests. Floor and/or stand. Isolation of the turntable from it's own mechanically induced vibrations. Motor, chasis, tonearm. Take time to identify which, if not both, are the problem you need to address. Klipsch out. PS. BTW, I saw that air platform solution on ebay and it's very similar idea to a platform made by Voodoo Isolation Systems. Yes there's a company called Voodoo Isolation Systems in England. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clipped and Shorn Posted October 22, 2002 Share Posted October 22, 2002 Jazman, Hopefully the isolation of the table from "itself" will largely be taken care of by moving on to the Music Hall MMF-7 to whatever extent that table has addressed this, so what I would want to consider is any further vibrations that would somehow be picked up from the work table that this unit and several others will be sitting on. Mike, Thanks for the pics, now I see, there are two halves to the cups and the ball is in the middle. Cool, it now makes sense. btw, clicking on my avatar brings up a better larger version. -c7s Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted October 22, 2002 Author Share Posted October 22, 2002 The balls are surrounded by the two cups on top and bottom. See the pic? The ball is BETWEEN the two cups; in fact, you cant even see the ball once inbetween but there is a space and the top and bottom cups do not touch as they move about. The table then sits on top of the FLAT surface of the top cup. See? On the DIY version, the balls are on top... and you put a piece of MDF between the turntable and the balls. No, it does not slide off, althought the stand needs to be level. Many use the air bladder approach which is less finicky. The DIY LOON combines both. kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clipped and Shorn Posted October 22, 2002 Share Posted October 22, 2002 got it. tnx. {{{{remember the Yater Spoon reference in Apocalypse Now? }}}}}} -c7s Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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