NOZ Posted October 21, 2002 Share Posted October 21, 2002 What is the difference between these two crossovers? I've seen pictures on e-bay of AA's. and they look nothing like my AL's in my La Scalas. The AL's seem to have a lot more to them. Just wondering because I'm going to build my own herritage center channel and looking for all the separates. They are hard to find and when you do find them they are very expensive. Should I continue to get a single AA or would the AL be a better choice. Thanks Sean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Klappenberger Posted October 22, 2002 Share Posted October 22, 2002 Sean, The AL network has a bad reputation. If you have to choose beween those two, get the AA. AL K. =============== Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted October 22, 2002 Share Posted October 22, 2002 I agree with Al here. Also, please see the THREAD about La Scala crossovers going on right now. There are pics of AL's crossover as well as the Type A alternative, an even simpler approach. If using the vintage type AA, then you might also remove the diodes that many have said affect the top end performance. Here is a pic of the OIL cap Type AA version kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Lindsey Posted October 22, 2002 Share Posted October 22, 2002 To be honest with you, when Q-Man and I compared the AA and AL with the ALK, my ears noticed very little difference between the two. That could be just me but in either case, the ALK blew them both away! Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Landau Posted October 22, 2002 Share Posted October 22, 2002 Mike, Did you remove the metal bolt from the tweeter inductor and the diodes from the type AA crossover? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted October 22, 2002 Share Posted October 22, 2002 Mike, tell me how you found the oil AA to sound? BTW, were the diodes disconnected? The fact that you said the oil cap AA and the stock AL sounded alike makes me really circumspect here. Where you doing the one crossover in left and other other in the right method? In addition, you are aware of the auditionng pratfalls and one that almost ALL Audio Huts use. Invariably, almost without fail, if listening to two pairs of speakers side by side, the listener takes the speaker with the more tipped up top end. MAny top speakers ALWAYS suffered in these type showrooms that did this, so much so that HIGH END places abolished this type of auditioning as it produced these results time and time again, with the customer going with the speaker with the more extended top as it appears more detailed etc. I personally dont think that either the comparsion between left and right, nor the a to b quick switch is a very good way to audition speakers. You can ONLY really get a handle by prolonged listening in your system, with the speakers setup properly. This is not to start some sort of flame war; indeed, I have not heard either the ALK/Type AA/or Type AL in my own home (or in years for that matter). BUt I do know a thing or two about components and auditioning gear. I do want to hear the ALKS and I will sooner or later. But conclusiong with these type auditions are hard to draw. A lot more is going on then meets the eye. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Lindsey Posted October 22, 2002 Share Posted October 22, 2002 When listening to both crossovers, the woofer was disconnected so we were only listening to the highs and mids. We were using the a/b method with my La Scala's and a mono source. The 2 networks were not compared to each other. They were both compared to the ALK and the volume had to be adjusted down a notch on the ALK side so they would be at the same level (I think it was 80db at 1khz). Maybe not a fair comparison because they weren't compared against one another. But while listening to both comparisons against the ALK, the ALK was simply cleaner, more open and detailed, with better balance (mid not so forward). The squawker tap settings were in the stock position of -6.2db. The difference was about as overwhelming as replacing the K400 with the Altec 511B. I have since replaced the Home Depot 12ga wire with Audioquest Slate Bi-Wire. Although I am hearing a slight improvement (imagined?), it is nowhere near on the level of the ALK's and Altec 511B mods. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Klappenberger Posted October 22, 2002 Share Posted October 22, 2002 Guys, If you are going to use the AA network, there are three mods to make to it: 1 - Disconnect one of the wires to the two zener diodes (only one is necessary). 2 - Remove the screw from the tweeter filter inductor. It holds down the black round washer that's hiden behind the big metal inductor in the pcture above. 3 - Connect about a 3.9 uF capacitor across the 2 uFd oil cap that goes to the tweeter. That's the tall one on the left in the picture. I would use a Solen "FastCap". This increases the output cap to about 6 uFd. Al K. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Landau Posted October 22, 2002 Share Posted October 22, 2002 ---------------- On 10/22/2002 10:10:00 AM Mike Lindsey wrote: When listening to both crossovers, the woofer was disconnected so we were only listening to the highs and mids. We were using the a/b method with my La Scala's and a mono source. ---------------- I guess that it explains why you heard a difference. When I have compared my type A to the ALK,I have replaced both crossovers in the speakers each time,and the woofer was connected so I have compared the whole crossover and not just the mid/high sections. One of the reason for prefering the type A was better bass impact and bigger sound as well as added midrange clarity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted October 22, 2002 Share Posted October 22, 2002 Guy, I totally agree here and I said this early on, actually before any comparisons were done. I think this is really an incorrect way to audition these crossovers to understand the whole picture which takes running them in a proper system, both hooked up, fully, and system set up correctly. All this must transpire over a period of time as well. I think this is really the only way to get a more objective take on it. Ultimately, Mike and others are very happy with the decisions, which is all that really matters in some ways. It is only when making recommendations to others that one must be careful. Mike made a GOOD POINT that I hadnt heard La Scala/Khorns (I've never heard Belle) in years so it is hard to make serious recs in their instance. That was a good point. I have backed off a bit. I will state that auditioning at VERY high volume is also a quick way to numb the hearing and miss some of the subtle differences in the way a component performs in a variety of ways. I actually think auditioning anything in the manner above will not yield a very accurate assement whether it be amplifiers, preamps, cd player, turntables etc. You need to relax. Listen to a variety of music. Get USED to the system as a whole. Yes, it takes longer. Yes, it is more difficult. But the results are worth it in my opinion. Ultimately, they probably got a damn good crossover with the ALK units. I just dont think listening in this manner leads to the best long term conclusions nor the most accurate ones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOZ Posted October 22, 2002 Author Share Posted October 22, 2002 Thanks everyone for the input. Eventualy, I will put in all three the same for my fronts and center. Sounds like I will be looking for three ALK networks in the future. That doesn't mean I won't try three AA's before that. I know, alot of mixed opinions, different tastes... Added input would be great. Again thanks for the input. Sean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwardre Posted October 23, 2002 Share Posted October 23, 2002 OK, here's my added input. WRT the AA. As you all probably know, there are (at least) 2 AA networks floating around. One, pictured above, is as stated, the 'oil filled' version. The other has metal cylindrical caps. There is a person selling a pair of AA's on 'the bay' currently, one of each type: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1390399751&rd=1 NOZ - you have 20 minutes if you want to take advantage, $51 is really cheap but they'll probably go for more. I'll submit now in case NOZ is currently reading or anyone else wants to make a move on these, and continue my input in a subsequent post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwardre Posted October 23, 2002 Share Posted October 23, 2002 To be continuing. I have several of each, the oils and the metals. There is in my opinion, no need for prolonged exposure to each in an attempt to flesh out subtle differences. In the case of these two 'AA's, the difference is very pronounced employing the L/R or the 'quickswitch' method. Obviously detailed 'prolonged exposure' trials would add some measure of added difference identification, but to me there was absolutely no reason to go to this extreme. The oil filled's sound like an altogether different net than the metal cap ones. They are significantly more detailed, rich, and robust. The metals on the other hand sound muffled, confused and lack any mid-bass punch. This of course...IMHO. Neither type had the diode taken out of circuit or the metal screw removed or the added cap installed. Bone stock observation. I have since (like just the other night) removed the screw. To be honest, I have noticed a slight increase in bass response in the metal cap AA, bringing it closer to the oil AA as far as the bass is concerned. I have not noticed a significant change in the oil AA's I removed the screws from. These are installed in my front center Belle and rear center 'Belle to be'. However, there is currently so much clean tight bass in my HT room that I seriously doubt I would be able to immediately notice a change. This is where the long range listening experience that MH described comes into play. I will now (like tonight) go and employ the other AA 'mods' mentioned here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Lindsey Posted October 23, 2002 Share Posted October 23, 2002 When comparing the AA/AL to the ALK, I believe the woofers were disconnected. However, when I compared the AL to the ALK in my own home, all drivers were connected to the networks. Without question, the ALK was the better network imho. Like I have mentioned in other threads, the ALK was clearer and more open sounding, had more clarity, the bass was a little tighter and there was more balance to the sound (mids not so forward). If you ask most others that are currently using the ALK, you would get a lot of the same answers. This of course is just my opinion. YMMV... Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted October 23, 2002 Share Posted October 23, 2002 "To be continuing. I have several of each, the oils and the metals. There is in my opinion, no need for prolonged exposure to each in an attempt to flesh out subtle differences. In the case of these two 'AA's, the difference is very pronounced employing the L/R or the 'quickswitch' method. Obviously detailed 'prolonged exposure' trials would add some measure of added difference identification, but to me there was absolutely no reason to go to this extreme" Well, in regards to the quick switching and A/B, I have found otherwise over the years of auditioning all sorts of gear, whether it be cable, amps, preamps, speakers, or tweaks. It really depends on the component, however, as some gross differences can be ascertained very quickly. But to get a full handle on the subtle differences in the whole picture, and when comparing two quality pieces of gear with both presenting positives, the quick A/B and one side against the other is very deficient in my view. And many times, gear that immediately strikes you as GREAT or positive in certain aspects, will later reveal more problem with long term listening. IT is JUST such a comparison that is problematic when audtioning something like OIL CAPS vs fim and foil or Metatlized Poly. In relation to comparing the ALK, a more than likely VERY revealing unit and probably of high quality, VS something like the OIL CAN Type AA unit, you are very possibly dealing with distinctions that might seem more positive at first. When I have compared top flight oil caps in other applications, this with high quality film and foils, the film/foil poly caps tend to be more revealing and better up front. IT is only after a long term comparison, and more experience, that one can sometimes pickup the musical difference between these film caps, which I have found actually heighten and shine a light on certain aspects of the spectrum, while not being entirely harmonically correct, a bit like solid state vs tubes. On a first listen or quick switch, these same findings might be lost with the seemingly more revealing on first listen poly caps taking the top spot. Now, I doubt very many have even read this far in this lengthy response, but if you rememeber, Mike said he didnt hear much of any difference between the Type AA and the AL; I am wondering now if he was listening to the vintage OIL version of the AA or not. Perhaps he will let us know. Edwardre, I am inclined to agree that the vintage oil caps on this old Klipsch are very special in many ways, some of which would go unnoticed in some comparisons. I have found oils to offer a sublime presentation that is hard to describe. And certain measurements do VERY little if anything to depict this. I do know that Al K. does not like tube amps as he feels they are distortion devices. His feeling of SET amps and oil caps gets even worse, mainly based on measurements, something that can be VERY misleading dealing with sonics and actual performance. Still, I have had VERY nice high quality Solen/MIT cap crossovers in my other dynamic speakers, many of which I like. On the other hand, I have found oil caps to offer a synergistic match with both horns and high quaility tube amps, especially in the active coupling positions via the amps. I know this active vs crossover approach has worried AL. To this day, I have not tried any of the high po Copper Foil oils in a crossover. I know a few that have, one Les LAmmers via his La Scala that raved to no end. Hopefully, I will get a chance to hear all sometime in the future. kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Lindsey Posted October 23, 2002 Share Posted October 23, 2002 I believe the AA we compared is the one in the top photo, and not the one that jazman has in his Belle's. I know very little when it comes to all the different kinds of caps that are used in the crossovers, but I do trust my ears. All I can tell you, according to my ears anyway, the ALK is the far more musical network I have heard to date... Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOZ Posted October 23, 2002 Author Share Posted October 23, 2002 Thanks for the heads up Ed. I was watching them, but no guarantee of what working condition they were in. I'm trying to pick up a single AA item # 1391026591 on E-bay. I can't tell which type of caps they are. Can someone take a look and tell me? Many thanks Sean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted October 23, 2002 Share Posted October 23, 2002 Looks exactly like the shot I posted via the third response on this thread. Those are definitely the oil caps, just like to the left, Sean. kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Robinson Posted October 23, 2002 Share Posted October 23, 2002 Hey guys, I've got a pair of AA's gathering dust if someone wants to try them out ... Just pay for shipping Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwardre Posted October 23, 2002 Share Posted October 23, 2002 Mr Mobile is correct. The two nets pictured are one and the same type. I also agree 100% with his rational for prolonged listening. The metal can type is very distinct from these, having several cylindrical caps about 3/4" in diameter and 3" long rather than the 'cigarette box' type oil filled caps. Upon closer look at the AA's on e-bay (which by the way went for only $51), the left one is clearly an oil, but the right one appears to be sort of a hybrid. I see 1 cylindrical cap and two squarish laying down caps. The metal cap one I have at home both have 3 cylindrical caps. Strange. So looking at mobile's pics, the diodes would be the two things mounted on a metal piece sort of in between and in front of the two upright caps? And the mod is to remove ONE of the wires going to this 'diode'? Chris, I would like to have your AA's if your not doing squat with them, but realize that there are members here who would also like them who don't have a couple already. If you don't get 'pinged' for them in a week or so, give me a yell please. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.