Deang Posted November 1, 2002 Share Posted November 1, 2002 This post will make more sense if you read the last few posts in the "EL-84/SV-83 Interchangeability" thread. Yesterday, in a phone conversation with Dennis Had of Cary -- I was informed that since the EL-84's in the Super Amp DJH are not being utilized as output tubes, but as a current source only -- the Svetlana SV-83's are perfectly acceptable as replacements for the EL-84's. Dennis does not doubt that he sent the SV-83's with the amp to the previous owner. Dennis believes the NOS RCA's I bought were not providing adequate current. I asked if this was the case, if it was possible that the Super Amp would have based it's output on the impedance variances of the speakers, and not providing flat output. His response was, "very possible". Dennis said that all EL-84's are not created equal, and that he himself has run across several bad batches of NOS EL-84's in the past. I should have put those old Russian tubes back in before jumping the gun. After I related all of this information to the buyer, I gave him the choice of taking the amp, or backing out of the deal. I told him that if he reinstalled the SV-83's, he would in all liklihood recapture the majic I lost when I pulled them. He took the amp. So, since I have no amp now -- I need another. I figure this is a good time to try some things. I have sent "feeler" emails to some AudiogoN sellers asking questions for the following. 1) Cary "Rocket" PP amp: I see this amp as next evolutionary step from the AE-25 DJH. There is minimul gain with this amp, and people have had problems driving it. However, I'm sure the AE-3 DJH can do it with no problem. Things I especially like about the amp are the triode/ultralinear and 4/8 ohm switches, the physical layout, and the fact that Dennis Had designed it. 2) Welborne Apollos: High current SET. Here is the ad: http://cgi.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cl.pl?ampstube&1041041303&class&3&4&& Here is the seller's responses to my questions. Hi Dean. Yes, I built them from a kit from Welborne Labs. They discontued the kit because it is tough to sell kits that cost between $2800 and $4500. They would build them for about $400, if I remember correctly. Anyway, I have built many amps, but these are by far the most extravagent, overbuilt, overspecified, highest quality, best sounding ones I have had. I built two AudioNote Kit Ones, Welborne Laurels, a couple Curcios, and and old Dyna. The only cosmetic note I would add is that in the picture, the amps look almost white, but they are brushed silver. As to tube life, the KR300BXLS tubes are spec'ed for 40,000 hrs. of use without deterioration. I have probably 800-1000 hrs. on them. If you use them 20 hrs. a week, which is a lot, in 20 years they will be at their half life of 20,000. I don't have time for 20 hrs a week, so I am sure they will outlast me. But replacements are available for $300/matched pair, or $400 for the VHD842's which are another option. The 6EA7's are about $7 each, and quite plentiful. If you try to find an amp of this quality at retail, such as the Art Audio, which is not even monoblocks, and does not use the excellent Electraprint transformers, you will find they cost about $6000 to $10,000. You might check the Vacuum Tube Valley transformer shootout for some details about this Electraprint output transformer, where it killed all others, including the Tamura, AudioNote, Magnaquest, etc. I am using them with Thiel 2.3's. They dip to under 3 ohms. I do have the amps set for 4 ohm speakers, also. I find this is always the best with tube amps. You will not miss a thing with ss rectification. You will gain current, speed, and transparency. The current this amp puts out precludes the possibility of tube rectification, but you will not know the difference. This amp started life as the 1. The 1.5, I believe, is about where they are now, as I have added some black gate caps. The 2 uses a silver wired output transformer. Thanks. Dave 3) Bryston 3B-SST -- the new Brystons are supposed to be killer, with a significant improvement in the treble over the ST Series of amps. I have had email exchanges with several that they these new amps are on another level. Interesting. I may make a play on the Apollos first, since they don't show up on AudiogoN every day. These particular amps seem better suited for the RF7's, than other SET offerings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted November 1, 2002 Share Posted November 1, 2002 Well.... I would ditch the Rocket 88 idea. I dont know. I think they wont be a big enough difference than what you had and would not jump you into the whole other dimension of SET sonics. Ditto with the Bryston 3B-SST. I dont even know why you are considering this beast. lordy. IF anything, go with the 4B-SST to blow your downstairs system out to hell and high water! But why get another system aiming at the same thing? The 3B or 4B would be barking up that same tree with a better presentation and more sublime performance but nothing like a low watt SET magic that would push you do different music, listening habits, and playing field. As for the Apollos....WEll, they are beasts. They will bring you closer, but as I said in that other post, will not have the intimacy of the low watt SET amps. They WILL have more power if that is what you need. I am surprised that ole Dennis did not recommend a low watt alternative; he surely likes that route, even over the 805C. BTW, that might be another option for you; they are surely beautiful and sound LARGE!!! HUGE. But they are more expensive than the Apollos and haev different versions, some better. Did you ever find the impedance curve for the RF-7? kh ps- Ever wonder why he is selling the Apollos? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted November 1, 2002 Author Share Posted November 1, 2002 Kelly -- "Let me ask you this, Dean. Based on the year or so you have been reading my posts, do you think I could stomach ANYTHING that would make my ears bleed?..." Me -- Don't even entertain the possibility that any of my "earbleeder" comments are serious. I just throw them up to the wind when Heritage bigots go after the RF-7. I haven't had time to share this -- but Wednesday night I finally heard the K-horns that my daughter's friend dad (Ray) has. He says he bought them in the early 80's. He is running them, and get this -- with an old Crown amp, wired through a P.A. mixing board. The whole family is very musically talented, and the whole system doubles as both Hi-Fi and P.A.. When he went to fire them up I gritted my teeth, and my hands dug into the armrests. What came out of those corners was absolutely...WONDERFUL. After a few minutes I went over to his gear and noticed an equalizer. The settings were not your typical "smiley face". Turns out he had the speakers professionally equalized with an analyzer. Much warmer than my RF-7's, with a massive image. It was all to easy to imagine what they would have sounded like with really good stuff. In a huge way -- it made me happy inside, because now I know something I didn't know before -- that I can like big 'ole horns. It was cool. Kelly -- "As for the Apollos, you will lose the sublime quality of the low watt SET amps..." Me -- This confuses me somewhat. Is the difference in the tube type? I mean, the Apollos are SET, but were designed by Ron Welborne to drive speakers that present non-benign loads. The RF7's are efficient, but not necessarily tube friendly. I cannot share specifics, but suffice it to say that they are most definitely not a candidate for low powered SET. I will probably get whacked for even saying that. I see the Apollos as a step up from push-pull triode. Maybe not to a standard that you are used too, but hopefully to a standard beyond what I am accustomed. Kelly -- "Dont you just want a system for more suble music or low watt listening upstairs? The Apollos would not bring about the biggest difference from the rig downstairs." Me -- I'm convinced someone is posting on your behalf. There is no way Kelly H. would make that statement. You can't possibly being saying that 300B SET and RF7's is not going to be light-years apart from the Aragon/ DQ setup. Yes, I certainly wan't better quality, lower level listening for upstairs -- but I would still like to drive them up a little. Also, I don't want any suck-out in my frequency response. Kelly -- "Have you given up on the 2A3, not matter what type? Now that you have the TWO systems, you can go for two different levels of involvment, or at least two different types of involvment. Perhaps even expand your music library a bit in the doing." Me -- With the RF7's, yes -- I have given up on 2A3. Now, if you, or someone else was to say that that I wasn't gaining anything by going from triode push-pull to 300b SET -- I would probably just get the Cary "Rocket". Catch me in the right mood, and I might just chuck all this tube non-sense and get myself a nice solid state amp. I know you don't want to hear this, but much of what Al K. says, makes good sense. So, do I go for "pure distortion devices", or nice and clean "hashy" SS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted November 1, 2002 Author Share Posted November 1, 2002 It doesn't surprise me he's selling the Apollos -- look what the poor guy is trying to drive with them. Hell, the Thiels don't like any amp:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted November 1, 2002 Share Posted November 1, 2002 The Apollo is NOT a 300B SET. Where did you get that idea? That is, unless he changed something. The 300B is NOT the output tube. It's versions of the V52, a MUCH more powerful tube...not 300B. kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted November 1, 2002 Share Posted November 1, 2002 Much of what Al K. says makes sense? Christ. You mean regarding tube amps???? I give up. I have written WAY too much and wasted WAY too much time. What the hell am I doing? I have never seen a more true statement than the pathetic NO LIFE under my avatar here. I need to get a grip. I say go with the Apollos then. I hope he built the beasts well. You are right about one thing, they will be VERY different from what you are used to. kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Robinson Posted November 1, 2002 Share Posted November 1, 2002 Well that was an interesting thread I think I'll just stick with my lovely little Eico for awhile Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted November 1, 2002 Share Posted November 1, 2002 Well, actually, if those Apollo are the II version and are in great shape, then me might like them. They are NOT 300B SET amps however. They will not have the beguiling midrange of the 2A3/300B but WILL sound very nice. I dont know. To be honest, if I were Dean, I might just try them out. You REALLY dont see them come up very often. But I would talk to the guy at length to get a feeling about it. They are VERY unique looking. OK. I just saw the ad. Those do look nice...but wonder why he opted for the KR300 tube over the VV52, which is what it was designed for? I dont know a lot about the Apollo but remember looking at them when around. Come to think of it, I think the KR 300 version is probably interchangable with the VV52. I am not a huge KR tube fan as they dont have much midrange bloom.. but... I think you might like these amps in a way. kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted November 1, 2002 Author Share Posted November 1, 2002 It's impossible for me to post about these type amps without my inexperience showing through:) I thought the KR300 was a high current version of the 300B? LOL -- I knew the "Al" comment would send you through the roof. Hee hee, now we're even. You really should cut him a break though. Just because you don't agree, doesn't mean you can't appreciate where he's coming from. I think I fall somewhere in the middle. I think the real question is whether or not the Apollos are a step foward from the Super Amp, or a step back? See what I'm getting at here? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted November 1, 2002 Share Posted November 1, 2002 Cut him a break? ALL I DID was post his feelings on tube amplification, use of measurements, and oil caps. PERIOD. Not out of context. No misquotes. It was cut and dry and nothing he didnt write me in the four or five emails we shared. They were practically direct quotes, just worded more succinctly. If anything, I COMPLIMENTED THE HELL OUT OF HIS STUFF in that very same post, not to mention posting many, many flattering shots of his networks with active links to his page and his schematics. I dont know of ANYONE that posted more flattering pics of his stuff! And I tempered that post with MANY postitives about his character, workmanship, and product. What I got in return was above and beyond the call! His response was uncalled for. I dont think people read S H I T in these forums, or at least carefully. A simple juxtaposition of both sides is LOST in here; it is beyond frustrating. And that post about Al's views on measurements, tube amps, specs, oil caps etc was RIGHT DOWN THE DAMN line, verbatim. So dont tell me to go "easy" on Al. Try re-reading his response to my post concerning his opinion on tube amplification and reliance on measurements for evaluation. There's no need to go there. Christ... kh ps - And while I am at it, I have been giving advice in this place to the tune of ZERO! No products. No financial reward of any kind. And I have had people come to take my head off so many damn times I dont know which way is up. Between Mdeneen, Craig, C&S and those idiotic arguments about SET amps, triode amps, direct drive turntables, PARTS quality, oil caps, vintage amps...christ... I am tempted to QUOTE all the old statements from these guys... They would blush. Take a look back and see all that disagreed with most of what I said! Now look at what they say... christ, am I bent outta shape today.. heh. This place has come full circle and I have had to beat my stupid head against the wall from day one. pps- The above paragraph was brought to you by I AM HAVING A BAD DAY.com! ppps - Ok, so the above was over the top as well. Hell, it's Friday and I have something DUE! What am I doing? Sitting here typing like a doomed wolverine! If only I were so lucky... pppps - Craig/C&S, no need to responde to this; I am off my gourd today Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted November 1, 2002 Author Share Posted November 1, 2002 I wasn't trying to drag us off topic. I did read the thread in question, several times. Sorry I brought it up. We all have those days, you should see me when I skip my meds:) Don't sweat it!! I was hoping you would answer that last question: These amps a step forward from the Super Amp DJH, or a step back -- considering some of my musical interests? I've said it many times, Hard Rock and Metal sounds excellent at low to medium volumes levels, as long as the dynamics are not emasculated. No midrange bloom with these things? Hmmm. Since yesterday, I've been searching for bad words on the KR tubes -- I can't find any. Maybe it's just best to take a wait and see attitude. I don't have them, and may not be able to get them, depending on what offer the seller considers the most appealing. At any rate, it will be interesting to say the least. Hopefully the transformers don't blow off the top the first time I put on some Metallica:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted November 1, 2002 Share Posted November 1, 2002 Are you saying you searched the AA archives and found no bad words about the KR tubes? ARe you ready to cut and paste some since I am not going to make active links in this downgraded forum? There are many more comments. I would advice reading all those to get an idea. Please see these comments: 1. http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.pl?forum=welborne&n=1301&highlight=KR-2A3&session= 2. http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.pl?forum=welborne&n=954&highlight=KR-2A3&session= 3. http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.pl?forum=set&n=8544&highlight=KR+tubes&session= 4. http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.pl?forum=set&n=8535&highlight=KR+tubes&session= 5. http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.pl?forum=set&n=20439&highlight=KR+tubes&session= Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted November 1, 2002 Share Posted November 1, 2002 But hell, I say give them a go. Why not? Of course, KR is about out of business but ....they could be changed to run many tubes. Read the above links though... kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted November 1, 2002 Author Share Posted November 1, 2002 uh...that KR300BXLS sounds like it's right up my alley. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Disc Posted November 1, 2002 Share Posted November 1, 2002 heh, Well this thread was worth the price of admission. Kelly just plain losing it. Kelly you need more sleep! Personally I find it refreshing Kelly voicing his views and opinions in the forums. His verbiage on his views usually is not sugar coated, and that is just fine with me. Kelly is been around long enough to call them as he seems it, akin to the Bill O'Riley of Audio. Unfortunately for Kelly, being direct and voicing opinions, no matter how truthfull or insightful, can put you in the firing line. Kelly realize you might have to defend your views from time to time and no matter what, not everyone will always agree with you or your point of view. Kelly does spend a lot of his personal time and energy trying to give good advice about what he has experienced and learned. Kelly has given me loads and loads of good advice, and although I don't always follow his advice to a "T", he does continue to give direction when needed and it is valued. Keep it together Kelly. - tb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted November 1, 2002 Share Posted November 1, 2002 Kelly, What I have alway's wondered about you is exactly why you take all this so seriously ? What is it that drives you to want to influence peoples audio purchases with such vigor ? I'm not taking shots here just curious why. Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted November 1, 2002 Share Posted November 1, 2002 Lordy.... Bill O Riley????? Perhaps one of my least favorite individuals on the entire planet... following other notables like Jesse Helms. I guess that was some sort of compliment in there. heh... Thanks. You were nice enough to send me that tube headphone amp and HD-600 for a listen. And I enjoyed it. Hey, what advice have you not taken???? heh... As for your question Craig, I do it ALL for you! I love seeing your shining face and handsome blond visage at left, that ole smiling face, tilted head, shy grin.... It makes me giddy inside. Besides, what else is there to do but take this serious as hell? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted November 1, 2002 Share Posted November 1, 2002 I Bet !! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Disc Posted November 1, 2002 Share Posted November 1, 2002 You don't like Ole Bill O'Riley eh. I wasn't comparing you to the man himself, but rather his direct no-spin approach to giving his views. It WAS meant to be a compliment. I don't know the man personally, but I do appreciate O'Rileys POV on many a topic. Advise... The latest I can remember is the AudioQuest cables, which you didn't speak well of. I think they are pretty decent for the money, probably not great, but certainly a decent "cheap" cable. I'd still like your humble opinion on alternatives. Lets say you had to replace the DIY Twisted Cross connects, what cable would YOU be looking at for a replacement? Other than that, I think I have pretty much followed the path you have put down for me. I was glad to ge able to lend you the headphone amp and HD-600s. Tell you the truth, they rarely get a listen now a days. - tb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike stehr Posted November 1, 2002 Share Posted November 1, 2002 "Besides, what else is there to do but take this serious as hell?" Oh, I dunno.... Maybe design some websites, pay some bills, etc..... Feel good. You've turned a helluva lot of folks on to tube audio. If it wasn't for you getting my interest sparked up into tubes, and Edmond getting me started, I would still be listening to the average solid state consumer gear. I admire your passion to make sure any person who is interested in getting the best out of audio with what cash they have to throw out. (More tube oriented, but the audio subject overall in general.) Later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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