tripod Posted December 1, 2002 Share Posted December 1, 2002 What makes tubes better? And how are they better? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted December 1, 2002 Share Posted December 1, 2002 http://www.milbert.com/tstxt.htm http://www.republika.pl/mparvi/whytubes.htm http://www.vtl.com/pages/whytubes.html http://www.members.cox.net/archangele666/vaud6.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Cornell Posted December 1, 2002 Share Posted December 1, 2002 Dean right on nice reply also nice system. Regards Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tripod Posted December 1, 2002 Author Share Posted December 1, 2002 Thanks for the great links. I just read them, and will read them again later. Dollar for dollar, would it be reasonable for me to believe that current high-end SS gear is comparable (although far less classy) to tube gear? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Cornell Posted December 1, 2002 Share Posted December 1, 2002 tripod I honestly would have to say no, the tube sound is better! I bought a conrad johnson tube amp for about the same price as a SS Mcintosh 2150, look around! Tubes are more clarity, and better bottom end! Regards Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted December 1, 2002 Share Posted December 1, 2002 "comparable" in what way? Sound? No. Red Delicious and Granny Smith apples cost about the same per pound. They are both apples costing about the same -- but taste very different. Search the archives and the net -- we cover this about every week or two. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Cornell Posted December 1, 2002 Share Posted December 1, 2002 Dean What exacally does SET tube amp mean, Vs my conrad johnson linear control tube amp? Jim Wish id stop hitting the y for t, i always have to edit LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyKubicki Posted December 1, 2002 Share Posted December 1, 2002 Hey Dean, can you read Polish? That link (http://www.republika.pl) is a Polish portal...interesting how you found that! Bardzo ladnie! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike stehr Posted December 1, 2002 Share Posted December 1, 2002 Jim, SET means "Single ended Triode", A triode tube just has three electrodes internally. A SET amp only has one output tube. (You would need two mono SET amps for stereo, there are stereo versions on one chassis as well.) I don't know sh*t about Conrad Johnsons, but I assume it's a Push-Pull amp. A Push-Pull switches between two output tubes for signal. It takes two tubes for a mono amp, and four for a stereo amp. Most SET amplifiers are class A, Push-Pulls are usually Class AB. A is wide open without signal, AB switches between the two tubes, so one tube is almost switched off while the other is switched on, so the signal going through the amp is not wide open. Not terribly accurate, but I hope this helps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted December 1, 2002 Share Posted December 1, 2002 Gee Mike, I thought you did pretty good. I think Jim's CJ is Ultralinear though. Andy, no Polish -- a little German though:) I just hit on the site entering "why tubes" into Google Search. Check out this PDF doc. It's put out by Sonic Frontiers. http://www.anthemav.com/OldSitev1/pdf/taste.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lynnm Posted December 1, 2002 Share Posted December 1, 2002 Quote: What makes tubes better? And how are they better? Both SS and Tube technologies are based on the same principles. In other words an input signal is used to control the output stage of an amplifier. A perfect amplifier would be able to amplify an input signal with absolutely no alteration other than in amplitude. Any variance between the input and the output is by definition a distortion of the original signal. For the purposes of this discussion the "original signal" refers specifically to the original signal as presented to the input of the amplifier and ignores the issue of any distortion which occurs in the recording/mixing/mastering stages. Generally speaking SS amps come much closer to that ideal than tube amps and yet many audiophiles prefer tube amps ! Let's deal with one major fallacy/belief: Tube amps/Solid State amps are the way to nirvana. The reality is that the perfect amplifier does not/has not/never will exist. The best one may hope for is an ever closer approximation. The perfect amplifier will never exist because as test instruments evolve and are refined it will always be possible to uncover variation between the original signal and the output of the amp. In other words perfection will never be achieved. Logically one would assume that if distortion is inevitable then reducing distortion as far as possible would yield the best sounding result and that is true to the extent that a really bad tube or solid state amplifier will sound unpleasant. However how is it that a tube amp producing as much as 5% distortion may be percieved as sounding "better" than an equally powered SS amp producing < .5% or frequently far less ? Here things get a little sticky ! Solid State amplifiers tend to create/emphasise odd order harmonics while tube amps tend to create/emphasise even order harmonics. I do not pretend to begin to understand why this happens but I can give a sense of the difference: Strike any note on a piano and you will hear that note - Right ?? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Wrong !! What you will hear is the note and the harmonics generated by it. In other words you will hear the original note ,(eg. 500 hz) and its even harmonics,( 16.125/32.25/62.50/125/250/500hz./1000/2000/4000/8000 etc.) and its accompanying odd harmonics/18.52/55.56 /166.67/500hz./665/884.45/1218.69/4015.077etc.) For whatever reasons even order distortion is emphasised by tube amplifiers and odd order distortion is emphasised by solid state amplifiers. The research in the field indicates that even order harmonics are generally unnoticed by most listeners,(except in their abscence), but odd order harmonics are generally more likely to be heard/noticed. My take on the above is simply that when a tube amp distorts the distortion will typically be predominant in the even order frequencies and will be less evident to the listener than the emphasis given to odd order harmonics by Solid State equipment. Notwithstanding any of my comments above I have heard heart-stoppenly good output from both SS and tube amplification systems. In the end the important point is - What provides the best sound for any given user ? At that point the answer becomes that whatever best suits an individual is the best solution for that individual. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Cornell Posted December 1, 2002 Share Posted December 1, 2002 Is ultralinear good LOL! Is it normal for tubes to have a very slight ringing? Or do i have to adjust the Bias? Regards Jim SET looks interesting,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted December 1, 2002 Share Posted December 1, 2002 Ultralinear is fine. CJ is good stuff. Of course, you won't really hear it's full potential until you get a tube preamp. Don't even think about SET, or any other amp -- until you upgrade that preamp:) Is it "normal" for tubes to ring? I say yes. All tubes are microphonic to some degree. Some are very bad, like the tubes I'm using in my amps. Those suckers ring like a telephone. There are some things you can do to help the situation. Get your stuff as far away from the speakers as practically possible. You can also buy tube dampers. I'm using the Halos right now, and though they didn't get rid of all the ringing -- they certainly helped. http://herbiesaudiolab.home.att.net Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Cornell Posted December 1, 2002 Share Posted December 1, 2002 Dean, my pre"s are a POS, your right! How about the slight ringing in the tubes, is that a worry ar normal, this is the first time ive had the conrad at eye and ear level since i bought it! I adjusted the Bias, the tubes seemed really adjusted down, so i turned the bias up till the red light went on then backed it off just till the light went out like it says to do! Regards Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted December 1, 2002 Share Posted December 1, 2002 Jim, I edited my last post above to address the ringing. Basically, just keep turning it up unitl you can't hear anything except the music Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Cornell Posted December 1, 2002 Share Posted December 1, 2002 Ok Dean, no need for me to worry, thats great! By the way, the conrad is back on the Klipschorns, chorus didnt last long LOL! I have the chorus on an onky 2 channel, new reciever i got for free! One more thing id like to ask, im afraid of turning the tubes up as much as the SS gear, is it alright to crank tubes, similar to SS gear? Regards Jim Oh yea another thing, my system is in my bedroom, with the wires going thru the wall, i dont think i could get the equipment any further than that LOL! Child proof system LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted December 1, 2002 Share Posted December 1, 2002 Jim, Do you hear the tubes ringing through the K-horns, or from the amp -- while the K-horns are playing. I'm guessing your K-horns are thumping those walls pretty good, and you are getting quite a bit of physical vibration through the walls and floor, as well as some acoustical vibration in the air. If you haven't done it already, you might want to get some vibrapods for the CJ -- that will help with the microphonics. It's good that you adjusted the bias, probably sounds better! I think your CJ does 40wpc. My gosh Jim -- that's a bunch of power for the K-horn. Crank away, but man -- watch you hearing. Make sure it's those tubes ringing and not your ears!! Personally, I've found that with the tube amps I've owned so far -- they've actually sounded better when I've jacked the volume somewhat. They really open up when driven. Just make sure the amp is somewhere where it's well ventilated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leok Posted December 1, 2002 Share Posted December 1, 2002 I must add my usual 2 cents. At low power (<1Watt), transistor amplifiers distort more, as a percentage of the output, than do tube amplifiers. It's not that people tolerate tube distortion, at low power, tubes actually distort less at low power. Tubes are linear voltage amplifiers. A transistor is an exponential voltage amplifier. This reference is in deang's 2nd link, third item. Except, what even that link left out the importance low power plays in this. At lower signal levels, the exponential characteristics of the transistor become more significant. Klipsch speakers operate at very low powers. I generally listen to my Forte-IIs and RF-7s at about 1/8 watt (I've measured using an oscilloscope). At 1/8 Watt, most transistor amps, not all, are producing substantial distortion. At higher powers, greater than a few Watts, transistors amplifiers are generally more linear. If one is listening to speakers that use lots of power, transistor amps sound great. I was very happy with a set of Magnaplaners and a 60 Watt NAD amplifier. I always ran that setup just short of clipping (I had calibrated the NAD meters for use with the Magnaplaners). The sound was very smooth. But that same amp was terrible with the Fortes and after a fair amount of research and experimentation, I came to the conclusion that low level distortion was the issue. leok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Cornell Posted December 1, 2002 Share Posted December 1, 2002 Dean The rigning is the tubes themselves, not thru the K-horns, and your right this is a lot of tube power for these! Oh yea, these shake every wall, including the outside porch! The resistance factor in these modular homes SUK ! Leok Not that i listen to ear bleeding levels, i know i dont need much power at all, but with 3 screaming girls, i do sometimes need the power, or just shut it down! On my SS amp, ive had this so loud i could of fired a gun in here, LOL! I dont go that loud! Regards Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted December 1, 2002 Share Posted December 1, 2002 Man Leo, you must listen to your stuff at a mere whisper:) If you don't mind me asking: How big is your room, and how far away are you sitting from the RF7's? I sit about 8 feet away, and I'm sure that many times -- I'm using everything the Apollos can deliver (95 db at my listening position). Which reminds me. We had discussion about the 4 ohm taps and total output. The one thing I wanted to get back on you on was your statement related to sensitivity. I remotely understood the math behind the halving of output, but did not really understand how the RF7 went from 102db/w to 99db/w using the 4 ohm taps. Seems to me the sensitivity would be a constant. Just curious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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