Has anyone heard these SET amps?

[robforst1]

http://www.decware.com/Select/select.htm

[ChrisK]

The Decware Zen SE84C (not "Select") was my first tube amp. Needless to say, I don't think I'll ever go back (to SS). It was a real ear opener. While I have since moved on to a more powerful 300B based amp (Cary SEI300), I'm considering getting another Decware for a second system. Maybe if I had bought a "Select" instead of the standard Zen, I wouldn't have felt the need for more power.

Chris

[edster00]

I have not heard that model but I did audition a pair of the Decware Signature Zen Triode Mono Blocks model SV83M driving a pair of Cornwalls (this was before I got my K-horns). I had tried several other higher powered tube amps when I tried a pair of the Decware Zens. The 30 money back offer struck me as too good to pass up.

I loved the Decware Zen amps. Their sound was very very good, the best I had heard from tube gear at that point in time. What I came to discover was they just didn't drive my Cornwalls to loud enough levels for me. My listening room is ~14' x 22' and the amps ran out of steam at the low 90's dB range (as measured with a Rat Shack SPL meter at the listening spot ~17' from the speakers). I returned the Zen's after 28 days.

[Manuel Delaflor]

where is mobile homeless?

[akshobhyavajra]

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On 12/9/2002 11:12:19 PM robforst1 wrote:

http://www.decware.com/Select/select.htm

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The SE84 series of amps are a great match for speakers with an efficency of 90 db +. I've owned an 84C for a year and love it. Great midrange and it works well with my 8 ohm speakers. According to Steve Deckert it works even better with 4 or 2 ohm loads (as opposed to OTL amps, which prefer 12 to 16 ohm loads).

As long as you have efficient speakers and a small to mid-size room you might really like their sound. Larger rooms would require some more efficient speakers like the Avantgarde Uno (also their cheaper DIY clones) or a more powerful amp, like a 2A3 or 300B type.

NOTE: I was able to manage power requirements by replacing my Klipsch speakers (now on secondary system) with more efficient Reference 3As (which have no crossover). I also added an Octal 6 preamp, which added 20 db of gain in shunt regulated push pull mode. I was willing to tweak my system to make the Zen work. IF you decide on the Zen - it will take more than a month to break in - I don't care what anyone says. After six months mine really started to sing and. Most people are not patient enough to wait that long.

In my particular case a little patience, some tweaks and a bit of tube rolling really paid off.

Regards,

~Michael~

[Doug C]

I've had the Zen Select now for 6-months and this little amp has turned my thinking around 180 degrees. I'm currently using it in my main system. The room is 12'x 21' with 8' ceiling. I should mention that there are two openings into other large areas of the home. The Select drives a pair of Klipsch RF-5's and the sound is wonderful.

I typically listen to music in the 88-92 dB range for extended periods which is pretty loud and the Select has no difficulty at all. If you want this level of volume you need 98 dB or better in your speaker efficiency. The little amp like most tube amps is a little soft on the bass (sub required). I have a pair of SVS Ultra subs so lack of bass is a non-issue for me.

I auditioned the Select with a pair of RF-3's at a local Klipsch dealer and this is a wonderful budget pair of speakers for the Decware amp. The RF-3 does not give up much to the RF-5 considering the savings. I broke down and am upgrading to the RF-7, they should arrive within the next week or so. Have been watching the positive comparisons posted on the RF-7 over the RF-5. The extra 3 dB sensitivity of the RF-7 will have the same effect as doubling my amp power also.

If you have a sub the Klipsch Reference line is a wonderful match for this amp. It is true this amp takes a long time to break-in and really sound it's best. Average speakers mated to this amp may sound less than impressive. I tried a pair of Infinity Overture 3's and they did nothing for the amp. Hooking up the RF-5's however was a real treat.

Just for comparison I put my Musical Fidelity A3CR (120 watt/channel) SS amp back in the system for a couple of days. This is a really fine amp but after being used to the Select it just did not have the detail and large open sound stage. Boy was I glad to get the Select back into the system. This amp also does a great job with HT.

Doug C

[mobile homeless]

A lot of interesting responses here. Steve Deckert is the MASTER of online marketing and along with Doc B of Bottlehead, has really helped his cause with his website and use of customer online comments. The only other unit I can really think of that comes close is the complete online blitz by Herman with his Tjoeb CD player (Herman and I were going to make this huge audio site, bettering his own horrible Tjoeb site in the process until I realized that his plan didnt involve ducats for said webmaster until said site became profitable).

I think the little Zen amps are some excellent pieces for the money, especially if you arent into the DIY side and want the cheapest entry into SET land. On the other hand, ole Steve has also been king of hype and has fudged numbers for a long while, first claiming an absurd 5wpc from his original ZEN amp. This little amp wouldnt achieve 5wpc running with the tide being towed by a Fountain! But the tubes ARE CHEAP and easy to obtain (as long as Svetlana continues to produce the little SV83 a cousin to the 6bq5).

Still, it's a neat little amp nad used within its range, would make many happy if:

1. The room was not too large

2. More efficient speakers than Steve admits

3. a benign load w/said speakers

4. music that is smaller scale

Still, there are better offerings out there but most cost more money. I dont think the Select version offers any more power per say but does offer some better parts and a more attractive chassic. His top of the line monoblocks are in too rarefied a price bracket to be an option in my opinion. They would come in last in my book compared to many others.

90% of the users and reviewers you see concerning the Zen amps are first time tube newbies that really are taken with the unfettered and musical quality of tubes in general and the ultra simple SE topology to boot.

One thing, the ZEN amps are NOT actually TRUE TRIODE amps in that they are hooked up in triode but do not employ true TRIODE tubes ala 2A3/300B/45 etc.

In my view, once getting up into the $700 range, you are nearing other used options that might offer a better final resting place. On the other hand, I think the little ZEN is a cool little amp and would be a fun project to tackle with a soldering iron for a second/office system.

kh

ps- The Reference 3A are not actually more efficient speakers than the average vintage Klipsch but ARE more simple eschewing the crossover. I think to actually get the most from SET, an even more efficient speaker is needed, that is, to make SET fully BLOOM. On the note of the RF-7, just hope its not quite so benign impedance does not bring a problem.

[Doug C]

mobile homeless,

You are right about most Zen reviews being from tube amp newbies, I'm one of them. I never really looked at tube amps before because of the prices! When I found I could purchase a tube amp from the manufacturer for 700 bucks with a 30 day trial I figured why not?

The Zen may not be the end all of tube amps but Decware does make it easy from a price and support standpoint for a newbie to get his/her feet wet and this has to be good for all of those in the business of building and selling tube equipment. My experience with the Zen Select has made it quite clear that there is yet another hole for me to throw money into (tube gear in general).

Doug C

[akshobhyavajra]

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On 12/10/2002 1:27:43 PM mobile homeless wrote:

ps-

The Reference 3A are not actually more efficient speakers than the average vintage Klipsch but ARE more simple eschewing the crossover. I think to actually get the most from SET, an even more efficient speaker is needed, that is, to make SET fully BLOOM.

On the note of the RF-7, just hope its not quite so benign impedance does not bring a problem.

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Depends if you're throwing a crossover into the definition of "efficiency". I wasn't refering to vintage Klipsch... just mine, which were discontinued a couple of years ago.

A 106 db speaker will definitely make SETS bloom more so than a 92 db box, though I suspect something like a CAD-805C will probably bloom fine @ 92 db....

Regards,

~Michael~

[mobile homeless]

I happen to really groove to the open and coherent sound of the single-source speaker. My northern friend has some excellent Lamhorns with the AER Mk I drivers and they do amazing with 2A3/300B. I almost got a pair of Lamhorns myself but opted the vintage Klipsch route since a pair of CW appeared within driving distance (btw, he found them lacking with the original ZEN that he had on loan after his Horus 2A3 amps sold, at least with more challenging music - the Lamhorns come in at about 100db or so with no crossover).

As for the Cary 805 option, while they might power the lower efficiency option better, I found you will lose the intimate magic of the lower watt 2A3/300B offerings. When I compared the 805 to the original Cary 300se monos, I found the smaller Carys were the better amp, this via a pair of ProAc Minitowers, a very benign load but with less than stellar efficiency. I found the more robust 211/805/572 etc SET amps to just not convey all the positives of their little brothers. That last bit of magic is missing...but it's magic I think that's pretty important if going the SET route.

kh

[mike stehr]

Mobile is totally right, judging from my experiences with vintage 6BQ5 single-ended pentode connected amplifiers.

5 watts per side with a single triode connected SV83 Pentode,

??!!

I MIGHT get 2 watts with a 6BQ5 pentode connected cranked, not real positive, but they operate mostly in the milliwatt range.

Maybe the SV83 puts out more wattage in triode mode.

1. The room was not too large

I have a 12'x 14'x 7' room, too small for Chorus II's and will be for Cornwalls. Oh well, they won't be in this room forever.

Smaller speakers out from the corner work best.

2. More efficient speakers than Steve admits

I'm geussing at least 96 or better....more like 98 and above.

3. a benign load w/said speakers

I agree, these old vintage SE 6BQ5 amps really run out of steam on a larger woofer in a 3-way design.

Between the passive crossover parts, and the lower load of a woofer in a 3-way, it just seemed to make them sound thin in the bass department.

(My little experiences with the Chorus II's I had.)

On the horns only, these little amps do well.

I would say that using a old vintage SE 6BQ5 amp or maybe even the SV83 ZEN would be best suited to a Full-Range driver in whatever enclosure that suits the particular driver. There is many types of enclosure designs.

No crossover and a good light load for the amp.

I found these vintage Norelco/Philips 12' FR's really made these SE 6BQ5 amps open up.

Monitor like, great for this smaller room.

4. music that is smaller scale

Well I'm rotten and use subwoofers for larger scale material,

but they do sound the best of all playing small scale with no subs at all.

They thrive on Jazz.

I can see why you opted the vintage Klipsch route, you could almost get two pair of Cornwalls for the price of a pair of AER mkI drivers alone!

Those Lamhorns are NICE.

[akshobhyavajra]

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On 12/10/2002 2:53:52 PM mobile homeless wrote:

I happen to really groove to the open and coherent sound of the single-source speaker. My northern friend has some excellent Lamhorns with the AER Mk I drivers and they do amazing with 2A3/300B. I almost got a pair of Lamhorns myself but opted the vintage Klipsch route since a pair of CW appeared within driving distance (btw, he found them lacking with the original ZEN that he had on loan after his Horus 2A3 amps sold, at least with more challenging music - the Lamhorns come in at about 100db or so with no crossover).

That last bit of magic is missing...but it's magic I think that's pretty important if going the SET route.

kh

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kh,

I was looking at the Lamhorns (never heard them, but heard good things about them), and the 1.8 Cabinets w/ AER MK-1 or Lowther drivers is something I would consider - half the cost of a new Avantgarde UNO...though I've seen them for about 7k used.

And yes - the SET magic - really what it's all about. Larry from Hollywood Sound, a Cary Dealer for over ten years and South Florida turntable guru - mentioned to me on a recent visit that the little ASL TULIP 2A3 actually smoked the CAD-300SEs - period. I was shocked to hear this from him, since he lived, ate and breathed Cary for years....

Something worth considering, esp at 1K - which is a bargain for someone like me, who does not want to build anything.

Regards,

~Michael~

[Audio Flynn]

Mike Stehr,

You state briefly you did not like this option for the Chorus II.

Was there another SET option you found to be successful?

Tubie in Training

Rick

[mobile homeless]

I actually did that rather tepid website for the Lamhorns and was going to get a pair plus some ducats for a payment... but decided against it. The AER drivers do very well with the Lamhorns, better than the Lowther and the more aggressive REPS 1.

As for the ASL Tulip, I am not so sure. I dont happen to think the ASL gear has the best build or quality control this based on my limited exposure to one of their products along with a client's ultimate refusal to carry their line of products as his tube line due to reliability problems he had with his samples.

I think the original Cary 300se with the extra POWER BANK of caps was an amazing amp in the midrange. In 1990, it changed the way I felt about amplification completely! I know the Tulip got that glowing review in Listener I believe, but I have been a bit wary of this one. I would opt for used Wright Sound 3.5 before the Tulip.

kh

[akshobhyavajra]

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On 12/10/2002 5:09:32 PM mobile homeless wrote:

I think the original Cary 300se with the extra POWER BANK of caps was an amazing amp in the midrange. In 1990, it changed the way I felt about amplification completely! I know the Tulip got that glowing review in Listener I believe, but I have been a bit wary of this one. I would opt for used Wright Sound 3.5 before the Tulip.

kh

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That's a sweet-looking setup, indeed. I've not seen the mono's with the power bank - it must sound divine.

I've seen the Tulip and it seems put be put together a bit better than the little AV8 - which I picked up when they were the latest craze in budget pp tube monos... I think you're right about George's WPA3.5 - again - haven't heard it, but I've not heard anyone complain about anything except George answering his e-mail in a timely manner . Must be something to this amp, though, you've been recommending it for some time:

http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.pl?forum=set&n=7856&highlight=aes&session=''>http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.pl?forum=set&n=7856&highlight=aes&session='>http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.pl?forum=set&n=7856&highlight=aes&session=href>

Best Regards,

~Michael~

[mike stehr]

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On 12/10/2002 4:24:56 PM Audio Flynn wrote:

Mike Stehr,

You state briefly you did not like this option for the Chorus II.

Was there another SET option you found to be successful?

Sorry, just 6BQ5 single-ended PENTODE connected amps.

The Decware is triode connected with the SV83's.

I never had any Single Ended Triode type tube amps.

Just Pentode.

I should triode connect one of these amps, could be a little closer to SET, but it's still just a pentode.

I'm just as new as you are Rick, but I'll take a geuss that the output transformers play a big factor in how one gets a more proper loading to a speaker and better bandwidth.

(In the lower registers, anyway.)

These little vintage SE 6BQ5 amps have wimpy sized OPT's,

which does not say they sound bad, they have great midband.

The lower registers are pretty soft, and it gets worse with a heavier load presented from larger speakers with a good sized woofer and crossover.

With the right speaker like a simple microwatt full-range, enables the little SE pentode amp to breathe a little, I geuss.

I'll take another geuss, Triode tubes have a lower impedance than pentodes, which helps in the bass department, a geuss.

That and a meaty trannie with good BW.

The old-timer in town here tells me I can run a 45 based amp with Cornwalls, I told him it would probably lack bass, he seems to think I would be suprised.

I do want a Triode based pair of monoblocks someday, but I'm enjoying what I have.

Tubie in Training

Aren't we all?

[Audio Flynn]

Thanks Mike

I spent so much time in the past 5 years on the study of HT. Not that it was wasted; my kids love it and have their friends come over frequently instead of wanting to get around town getting into trouble. We have a really nice ping pong table and volley ball net as well.

If I would have been doing the 2 channel thing I would be further through the learning curve.

Even early middle aged farts at 42 make bad judgements in their late thirties.

ps...Lord of the Rings does crank in good HT, so HT was not a misspent investment.

[akshobhyavajra]

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On 12/10/2002 8:13:21 PM mike stehr wrote:

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On 12/10/2002 4:24:56 PM Audio Flynn wrote:

These little vintage SE 6BQ5 amps have wimpy sized OPT's,

which does not say they sound bad, they have great midband.

The lower registers are pretty soft, and it gets worse with a heavier load presented from larger speakers with a good sized woofer and crossover.

With the right speaker like a simple microwatt full-range, enables the little SE pentode amp to breathe a little, I geuss.

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One successful way to increase ZEN performance is via autoformer speaker cables, which were initially designed for OTL amps. On a ZEN you would simply reverse the cable to change impedance from ... say 8 ohms to 4 ohms....see link:

http://www.otlamp.com/tweaks/ps/zero/cable.html''>http://www.otlamp.com/tweaks/ps/zero/cable.html'>http://www.otlamp.com/tweaks/ps/zero/cable.htmlhref>

It appears several Zen owners in the Decware forum have employed these cables with success.

Regards,

~Michael~

[ChrisK]

Don't get me wrong, I think the Zen is a very cool little amp, but why would somebody spend $700.00 on speaker wire/cable for a $500.00 amp? Honestly, I'm not trying to be sarcastic.

[mike stehr]

I think Micheal is pointing out the idea of using a autoformer in the speaker wire path to change impedances, not just buying them.

But I do understand your point.

Hell, I couldn't spend 700 bones on speaker cable and a autoformer!

And on a 10 dollar console receiver would be really pointless!

Micheal,

I use twisted teflon coated single solid core 24 or 22? AWG CAT5 wire twisted up at around 15 awg.

The Norelco's are 4 ohm.

It's not perfect, but it sounds good to me, IMO.

I'm pretty new to tubes and do like the sound of a single-ended 6BQ5 coupled to a good Full-Range.

A local guy in town pretty much showed me that you can get great sound with these old vintage amps when they are properly matched up with a good vintage Full-Range speakers.

He explained that it can be done very cheaply, which is fine because I am poor and restricted to DIY.

He has a pair of Whitley? Stentorian 10" Full range speakers in a 4 ft cab vented to 30hz with daul ports out the front.

They sound great! with a vintage SE 6BQ5 amp, he gets strong bass at microwatts, wonderful mids,

and my ears rolled off before they did, and that was at 14k.

He does play around and toss tweeters on for sparkle.

I'm the poorest audioPILE here, so the vintage DIY is my only alternative!