B&C ME464 horn, opinions?

[ClaudeJ1]

4 hours ago, PrestonTom said:

Emile, A couple of things are getting confused regarding diaphragm size vs  throat size. If the throat on the horn is 2 inch then get a driver with the same size exit (2 inch). Going small to large (1.4 inch driver to 2 inch horn) is not a great idea, but folks do this sometimes. On the other hand going large to small ( 2 inch driver to 1.4 horn throat) is a rotten idea. It actually can mechanically create a low pass filter. Notice I have not said anything thing about diaphragm size only horn throat and driver exit. 

 

Something to consider, and it may not work in your case, the edges of the K-402 (flat part with the bolt holes) can be trimmed back an inch or two on each side (table saws are wonderful). Would this work for you? Additionally, the K-402 can be rotated so it becomes  26 wide and 40 tall. You would need to alter the stand/mount and you might need to re-think your crossover point. 

 

Additionally,  is it possible that you have given up prematurely on the K-510 horn. I think it is a real champ. Another round of adjusting the crossover point, and EQ'ing it might work wonders. 

 

Good luck,

-Tom

Even the venerable TAD 4002 driver uses a 1.4 to 2" adapter.

[PrestonTom]

Yes, the TAD and some JBLs also had a snout that expanded from a 1.4 to a 2inch exit. These were done by design and had a thought out expansion of the cross-sectional area and taper. A generic adapter may or may not be a good substitute. However, we are not certain what the poster was specifically considering.

 

So it is probably best to shy away from an adapter (small-to-large) and certainly avoid an adapter that is large-to-small.

[uams]

Diffraction slot horns seems to catch on with quite the negative buzz, not just around here. How has this tendency latched on so predominantly? Surely not through hands-on experience only. Indeed, as a universal observation at least and at any SPL, I don't see how that is warranted. I use a pair of Electro-Voice TS9040D LX with the Don Keele designed Constant Directivity HP9040 horns + DH1A 8 ohm (and so an older design, as you all know), and from what I've read (though never experienced) the "frying bacon" effect shouldn't set in unless +120dB's are reached. More to the point: used in my own domestic environment they sound great, actually. I've had people over using the likes of Quad electrostatic speakers and other typical "high-end" offerings in their own setups, and they're impressed by the EV's - even envious at some of their traits. 

 

I wouldn't worry about the B&C ME464 horn using a diffraction slot - certainly not viewed as an isolated design parameter. 

[uams]

On 5/16/2021 at 5:54 PM, gnarly said:

Hi, thx for asking..

Currently have 3 DIY variations that are all close to the same, but with different H-V patterns, and a different pair of low-mid cones.

They all use a bms 4594he  or  b&c dcx464 coax CD to reach down to the low-mid cones, crossing in the 5-600Hz range.

They all high pass at 100-120Hz, for use with a sub. 

All are about 48" wide, and have detachable secondary flares for mobility.

Here's a pict of them....

 

Left is 75x50 with 8" Beyma 8mc300nd's.  It needed reflex ports to reach down to 100-120Hz.

Center is 90x60 with 10"  Faital 10pr300's. It uses the same top and bottom, centered port location as in Left. No reflex ports were needed.  The secondary flares are curved, kinda quasi-tractrix.

Right is 60x40 with 12" RCF mb12n405's. Traditional port locations.  This one is a real beast in terms of max SPL.

 

 

 Cool Synergy setup. What're the subs situated below the left and right Syn. horns?

[gnarly]

Hi uams, thx.

The subs are dual 18 push-push slot loaded (clamshell style PPSL). 

I basically took a very successful single 18 bass reflex build, and built the dual 18 PPSL scaling up the single's volume and port specs.

The cabinet vibration reduction vs single 18's has been awesome. I can get rowdy and walking subs have been a problem.

 

Are you currently using the MicroWreckers i see in your equipment list or the reflex boxes i see in your pict?

I bet both work great.

 

I agree that diffraction slots have gotten an unfair negative reputation....

No doubt there's some bad implementations, and bad CD/horn combos, using diffraction slots;

but here's some dang good ones too !

 

 

[Dave A]

OK I have a comment to make regarding the DCX464 + ME464 + B&C crossover. I have not tried to go active on this setup yet so my only experience is with the stock 16ohm drivers and horn and crossover from B&C.  It was at best good PA quality which was very disappointing. Setting it up through the Xilica may fix the problem. However when the same driver and crossover was used on the 402 horn it was just as good as the 1132 driver on a 402 with the stock Klipsch 942 crossover. When time permits, meaning when I get around to it, I will see how things go with an active setup. As of right now though the B&C horn does not excite me.

 

  Has anyone gone active on the DCX464+ ME464? would you PM me as I would like to talk to you if you have had good results.

[gnarly]

Hi Dave, i took the dcx464 / me464 combo active like shown earlier in this thread https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/200572-bc-me464-horn-opinions/&tab=comments#comment-2628703

 

 

I don't have the passive xover, so can't compare to "non-active".

 

From raw measurements of the two CD sections, I'd be surprised if sounded very decent without some active help.

Even with the processing i put in place, it hasn't been a combo i've felt was worth pursuing further, as i'm really enjoying  DIY conical MEHs.

 

I agree with your assessment of it sounding more like traditional PA.

So happy to exchange thoughts via PM if you still desire, but i can't say i've had what i'd call really good results.

[uams]

On 10/23/2021 at 4:43 PM, gnarly said:

Hi uams, thx.

The subs are dual 18 push-push slot loaded (clamshell style PPSL). 

I basically took a very successful single 18 bass reflex build, and built the dual 18 PPSL scaling up the single's volume and port specs.

The cabinet vibration reduction vs single 18's has been awesome. I can get rowdy and walking subs have been a problem.

 

Hi, gnarly

Interesting sub approach. Have you compared such a principle to horn sub iterations? 

 

On 10/23/2021 at 4:43 PM, gnarly said:

 

Are you currently using the MicroWreckers i see in your equipment list or the reflex boxes i see in your pict?

I bet both work great.

 

Thanks, yes the MW's are use from 83Hz and down with a high-pass at 20Hz, and the EV bass section is then low-passed at 83Hz. All slopes are 36dB/octave L-R, expect the HP slope style on the MW's is Butterworth.  

 

On 10/23/2021 at 4:43 PM, gnarly said:

 

I agree that diffraction slots have gotten an unfair negative reputation....

No doubt there's some bad implementations, and bad CD/horn combos, using diffraction slots;

but here's some dang good ones too !

 

 

 

Indeed, if the older EV HP9040 horns + DH1A CD's are anything to go by I'd be surprised if the B&C DCX 464/ME 464 combo doesn't perform very well indeed, but both you and poster @Dave A would seem, at least to some extent, to counter that assumption. 

 

Speaking of which, could you share some more insights on the sound of named B&C combo? What do you mean by them sounding like "traditional PA," and how are they differentiated sonically to your Synergy horns? I'm contemplating building the B&C 215-DCX MTM system at some time in the future, but would like to get some bearing on the sonic nature of the B&C horn and driver before considering more seriously. 

 

https://fohonline.com/articles/tech-feature/dyi-loudspeaker-design-the-bc-215-dcx/?fbclid=IwAR1qlR_5ipsPiBRjQnPpLDHRQ5DFNyc7ajX0pB5qEXOwAWT31F_VBEhiOIY

[Dave A]

10 hours ago, uams said:

Indeed, if the older EV HP9040 horns + DH1A CD's are anything to go by I'd be surprised if the B&C DCX 464/ME 464 combo doesn't perform very well indeed, but both you and poster @Dave A would seem, at least to some extent, to counter that assumption. 

DCX464 + B&C crossovers sound good on K-402 horns and sound bad on ME464. PA sound should be self explanatory as to quality and sound. The only hope for the B&C DCX464 + ME464 combo is to go active. 

 

 

[gnarly]

On 10/31/2021 at 10:10 AM, uams said:

 

Hi, gnarly

Interesting sub approach. Have you compared such a principle to horn sub iterations? 

 

Hi uams,

 

The two horn loaded subs i have are DIY Labhorns (the Tom Danley design on Prosoundweb), and JTR Orbitshifters.

Both are FLH, with about a 9-10ft horn path.

The Orbitshifters use a single long stroke 18" firing into the throat chamber and will definitely walk around when cranked up enough.

The Labhorns use dual opposed 12"s firing into the throat chamber and do not vibrate much, if any, no matter how loud.

 

I hope that's the principle you meant.....?

On 10/31/2021 at 10:10 AM, uams said:

 

Thanks, yes the MW's are use from 83Hz and down with a high-pass at 20Hz, and the EV bass section is then low-passed at 83Hz. All slopes are 36dB/octave L-R, expect the HP slope style on the MW's is Butterworth.  

 

 

Indeed, if the older EV HP9040 horns + DH1A CD's are anything to go by I'd be surprised if the B&C DCX 464/ME 464 combo doesn't perform very well indeed, but both you and poster @Dave A would seem, at least to some extent, to counter that assumption. 

 

 

Speaking of which, could you share some more insights on the sound of named B&C combo? What do you mean by them sounding like "traditional PA," and how are they differentiated sonically to your Synergy horns? I'm contemplating building the B&C 215-DCX MTM system at some time in the future, but would like to get some bearing on the sonic nature of the B&C horn and driver before considering more seriously. 

 

https://fohonline.com/articles/tech-feature/dyi-loudspeaker-design-the-bc-215-dcx/?fbclid=IwAR1qlR_5ipsPiBRjQnPpLDHRQ5DFNyc7ajX0pB5qEXOwAWT31F_VBEhiOIY

 

The combo definitely improves with  active tuning. You've probably seen B&C's recommended filters for use with their passive xover in the 215-DCX suggested build.

When i say "traditional PA", i mean in comparison to high quality boxes like Meyer UPA-1P's and such (which i own and compare to).  It's a good sound, just lacking a little definition and openness vs what i've been hearing with the Synergy builds. 

 

I've been working on Synergy iterations for 2+ years, slowly finding improvements that continue to distance their clarity from anything else I've heard.  If it weren't for some builds going backwards, i might think it's just a case of continued confirmation bias Lol.

 

I have every intention of returning to the B&C combo, and giving it the time it deserves.

Maybe even trying the 215 design.  I'd like to compare it to the DIY PM90/60's that i think are outstanding high-output boxes..

But happily right now, i've hit on a Synergy build i like so much, I'm in the process if building a couple more of it, for a LCR setup.