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Is 75 Watts enough for RP-600Ms and RP-450C? Denon AVR-S750H


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In order to get bass management, I sent back the awesome integrated amp Yamaha S-501 and have a Denon AVR-S750H on the way.

 

It has great reviews, but only advertises 75 wpc 2 channels driven. I have a 3.1 setup with RP-600Ms(100/400) and RP-450C center(150/600).

 

I have a few questions :

 

1. Is the receiver 'smart' enough to send all of its power capabilities to the 3 channels? No bi-amping on the center channel.

 

2. Is the advertised 75 watts going to be enough? Subjective question but 'enough' in my eyes means being able to turn it up pretty loud, low or no distortion, and ideally still having alot of headroom. It will be worrysome if my desired volume is like 75% of the knob. On the 501 rated at 85 wpc, the RP-600s were super loud at 20% of the knob turned.

 

3. From the way I understand it doubling power means +3db pretty much. So even if I spent the money and got a 150wpc amp, I would only gain 3db? There is the argument that higher power amps play better at lower volumes, but being on somewhat of a budget I had to go with the Denon mentioned.

 

4. Is it worth it to bi-amp the 600s with the 4th and 5th channel on the receiver?

 

Thanks for the help as always!

 

Note: These are the Kanto stands, really happy with em!

 

64868330220__AAF2198E-765F-411E-9725-A89407D88DDD.jpeg

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38 minutes ago, psykoticboss said:

In order to get bass management, I sent back the awesome integrated amp Yamaha S-501 and have a Denon AVR-S750H on the way.

 

It has great reviews, but only advertises 75 wpc 2 channels driven. I have a 3.1 setup with RP-600Ms(100/400) and RP-450C center(150/600).

 

I have a few questions :

 

1. Is the receiver 'smart' enough to send all of its power capabilities to the 3 channels? No bi-amping on the center channel.

 

2. Is the advertised 75 watts going to be enough? Subjective question but 'enough' in my eyes means being able to turn it up pretty loud, low or no distortion, and ideally still having alot of headroom. It will be worrysome if my desired volume is like 75% of the knob. On the 501 rated at 85 wpc, the RP-600s were super loud at 20% of the knob turned.

 

3. From the way I understand it doubling power means +3db pretty much. So even if I spent the money and got a 150wpc amp, I would only gain 3db? There is the argument that higher power amps play better at lower volumes, but being on somewhat of a budget I had to go with the Denon mentioned.

 

4. Is it worth it to bi-amp the 600s with the 4th and 5th channel on the receiver?

 

Thanks for the help as always!

 

Note: These are the Kanto stands, really happy with em!

1. Receivers are smart enough in that if you send it a signal, it will output that signal as processing dictates.  There's no real "being smart" about it.  The demands generally are across the front three channels, so that's where most of the power would be drawn.

 

2. IMO, no.  Not at all.  The S series and the previous revisions lacked a lot when I ran them on even the most elementary Klipsch configurations.

 

3. Your understanding is correct, but generally where more power benefits you is those kicks to the chest, those explosions, the bass drum, etc.  Where you'd really notice if the power wasn't there.

 

4. Not on a passive crossover with an AVR, no.  

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26 minutes ago, The History Kid said:

1. Receivers are smart enough in that if you send it a signal, it will output that signal as processing dictates.  There's no real "being smart" about it.  The demands generally are across the front three channels, so that's where most of the power would be drawn.

 

2. IMO, no.  Not at all.  The S series and the previous revisions lacked a lot when I ran them on even the most elementary Klipsch configurations.

 

3. Your understanding is correct, but generally where more power benefits you is those kicks to the chest, those explosions, the bass drum, etc.  Where you'd really notice if the power wasn't there.

 

4. Not on a passive crossover with an AVR, no.  

Man I hope you are somewhat wrong on #2. Plenty of people said it will handle those 3 Klipsch no problem. Gonna be pretty dissapointed if it gets here and doesn't do a good job. I just sent back the Yamaha S-501 and it powered them really well with only 85 wpc. 

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2 minutes ago, psykoticboss said:

Man I hope you are somewhat wrong on #2. Plenty of people said it will handle those 3 Klipsch no problem. Gonna be pretty dissapointed if it gets here and doesn't do a good job. I just sent back the Yamaha S-501 and it powered them really well with only 85 wpc. 

Power supplies are not created equal.  The supply in your R-S501 was designed to power 2 channels and 2 channel only.  It also wasn't having to have a bunch of extra features on it to power and cycle thru.  That system was designed to be a clean 2-channel driver.  It will sound better, and handle better for 2-channel than a home theater system.

 

The Denon PSU's in the S series are relatively anemic considering the need.  They need to power 5 channels, while handling video processing, surround processing, and everything else.  Granted that everything else isn't always functioning, but if you're expecting it to somehow be better, you are going to be disappointed.  It's not a bad system, but it's going to struggle in many areas.  It might work for you, but it's very reasonable that it won't.

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20 minutes ago, The History Kid said:

Power supplies are not created equal.  The supply in your R-S501 was designed to power 2 channels and 2 channel only.  It also wasn't having to have a bunch of extra features on it to power and cycle thru.  That system was designed to be a clean 2-channel driver.  It will sound better, and handle better for 2-channel than a home theater system.

 

The Denon PSU's in the S series are relatively anemic considering the need.  They need to power 5 channels, while handling video processing, surround processing, and everything else.  Granted that everything else isn't always functioning, but if you're expecting it to somehow be better, you are going to be disappointed.  It's not a bad system, but it's going to struggle in many areas.  It might work for you, but it's very reasonable that it won't.

We shall see. Definitely not expecting it to be better. I really needed the bass management so hopefully thatll be worth it with the sub getting here. If its 75% as good as the yamaha ill be happy. And hopefully the 15" sub will provide the punch where the amp doesn't have those nice peaks. 

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I know weight is not everything but the 7 channel Denon comes in at a weight of 19 pounds while the 2 channel Yamaha weighs 22.7 pounds.

 

Now that is out of the way.

 

7 hours ago, psykoticboss said:

1. Is the receiver 'smart' enough to send all of its power capabilities to the 3 channels?

The Denon should have settings where you can drive only the L-C-R.

 

Bill

 

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14 minutes ago, willland said:

I know weight is not everything but the 7 channel Denon comes in at a weight of 19 pounds while the 2 channel Yamaha weighs 22.7 pounds.

 

Now that is out of the way.

 

The Denon should have settings where you can drive only the L-C-R.

 

Bill

 

Oh yeah I definitely will say the yamaha was awesome. I really wish these nice integrated amps had bass management especially if it has the sub-out.

 

I will try to get those settings hooked up and I think it should be good. If I was connecting 7 channels I might be more worried but hopefully the 3 will run nice.

 

Thanks as always Bill.

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7 hours ago, psykoticboss said:

Oh yeah I definitely will say the yamaha was awesome. I really wish these nice integrated amps had bass management especially if it has the sub-out.

Can you link what you're talking about - which Yamaha model - because all of the Yamaha integrated amps and stereo amps I've seen have bass management right on the front panel.  What kind of bass management are you talking about?

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1 hour ago, The History Kid said:

Can you link what you're talking about - which Yamaha model - because all of the Yamaha integrated amps and stereo amps I've seen have bass management right on the front panel.  What kind of bass management are you talking about?

Yamaha S-501. I think you are referring to the bass tone control knob which raises or lowers the 'low frequencies'(doesn't specify what hz range) +/- 10db.

 

However, the bass management I am referring to is being able to set your mains to 'small' or set a crossover point where the mains can only play the mids/highs hz and the sub can handle all the lows. 

 

Doesn't make sense to me why an integrated amp would have a sub out so they know you might plug in a sub, yet they still send, in my case the RP-600s, full range frequencies. 

 

I listen to alot of EDM, dubstep, bass heavy music so I don't wan't to be sending the 600s tons of sub-bass notes 20-60hz at loud volumes. Causes amp to work way harder and it can also cause damage from over-excurting the driver. Although I loved the Yamaha, at the end of the day the tech rep at HSU where I got my sub really convinced me it was worth it to send it back and get a slight lesser receiver that would have all the features for EQ and bass management. It will also be nice to be able to fix the mid-range dip that is described in this review. 

 

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/klipsch-rp-600m-speaker-review.12138/

 

I just hope it doesn't get here and is terrible compared to the Yamaha. I just want to run loud and clean without having to turn the knob a ton. I like the feeling of having alot of headroom in the amp. With the Yamaha S-501 I was only turning the knob 10-15%.

 

At the end of the day though my amp budget was $600 max after tax. So my options were limited. Could either get a really good integrated amp, or a mediocre/good AV receiver.

 

I also really really like the Marantz integrated amp line around 600. Looks very clean and exactly my style. But once again, no bass management. Must be easier said than done to integrate that feature into those models. So pretty much everyone who uses those, minus having an additional measure to block low hz to mains, are over-working their speakers, introducing un-needed distortion, and potentially damaging them if they listen to bass music at loud volumes. I think if your music choice didn't have a ton of bass, you would be fine with those options.

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I think you are not thinking of integrated amplifiers in the way that they're designed by intention.  Most 2 channel configurations would have speakers that are designed to be full range or capable of full-range delivery.  Most of those amplifiers will cut at either 80 or 120 Hz as well.  If your budget was $600 - you could have stepped up to the X series which has a bit more oomph.

 

DENON AVR-X1600H 7.2-Ch x 80 Watts A/V Receiver w/HEOS | Accessories4less

 

I will tell you, you're probably going to have to run your S750 to about 60 or 70 to really feel the heat.  Those S models just lack so much in power.  You may get it and be fine with it, but I think you'll find yourself second guessing rather quickly if you're so worried compared to the Yamaha that had much more power and was able to deliver it cleanly.  

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19 minutes ago, The History Kid said:

I think you are not thinking of integrated amplifiers in the way that they're designed by intention.  Most 2 channel configurations would have speakers that are designed to be full range or capable of full-range delivery.  Most of those amplifiers will cut at either 80 or 120 Hz as well.  If your budget was $600 - you could have stepped up to the X series which has a bit more oomph.

 

DENON AVR-X1600H 7.2-Ch x 80 Watts A/V Receiver w/HEOS | Accessories4less

 

I will tell you, you're probably going to have to run your S750 to about 60 or 70 to really feel the heat.  Those S models just lack so much in power.  You may get it and be fine with it, but I think you'll find yourself second guessing rather quickly if you're so worried compared to the Yamaha that had much more power and was able to deliver it cleanly.  

I get you. I mean the RP-600s go down to 45hz. But the sub guy was saying you don't want to push them that low. Thats a good deal on that denon. Is it really just going to be 5 more watts? Or is that receiver going to be noticeably better? I am open to recommendations. I had also looked at the Yamaha TSR-700 which is advertised 100 wpc. But people said the better build of the denon would actually sound better even though only 75 wpc advertised. Should I try to get that x1600? Or the yamaha maybe?

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The Denon would be better than the TSR - think of the TSR's are the budget Yamaha's.  The X series of Denon AVR's is more akin to the Yamaha RX-A line.  They have better power supplies and generally have better power management.  IIRC, I think they have Audessey XT32 as well, where the S series doesn't (might be wrong on that though).  

 

Again though, if your budget is $600...that X is going to be much better than the S750.

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I found myself in the same pinch as the OP about two years back. All the stuff i liked was above my budget. I talked to my local hifi-dealer and his advice was to go used. I don´t know if that is an option here, but if you don´t need the very latest features in your amp/ receiver... I got my Marantz that way and never looked back at wanting to buy new.

Just my two cents.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, AndreG. said:

I found myself in the same pinch as the OP about two years back. All the stuff i liked was above my budget. I talked to my local hifi-dealer and his advice was to go used. I don´t know if that is an option here, but if you don´t need the very latest features in your amp/ receiver... I got my Marantz that way and never looked back at wanting to buy new.

Just my two cents.

I think youre right. I found a like-new Denon AVR-X3400H I think I will go with it. It should give me plenty of power without having to worry about it. 

Edited by psykoticboss
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Where are you located? I have a Denon 4311Ci sitting in its box. I used it for several years and replaced it with a Yamaha RX-A3060 only because I wanted the newer features.

The 4311 will not be short on power.

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Just now, Amstaff said:

Where are you located? I have a Denon 4311Ci sitting in its box. I used it for several years and replaced it with a Yamaha RX-A3060 only because I wanted the newer features.

The 4311 will not be short on power.

The 4311 was one of my options, someone beat me to it, so i went to my Marantz instead.

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5 hours ago, Amstaff said:

Where are you located? I have a Denon 4311Ci sitting in its box. I used it for several years and replaced it with a Yamaha RX-A3060 only because I wanted the newer features.

The 4311 will not be short on power.

I am in Eastern NC. Zip code 27504. Would you want to sell it? What would you give it to me for?

 

That thing looks like it would be awesome for my setup.

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1 hour ago, psykoticboss said:

I am in Eastern NC. Zip code 27504. Would you want to sell it? What would you give it to me for?

 

That thing looks like it would be awesome for my setup.

You guys crack me up with all this crap. This is why I the industry will NEVER rate amplifiers in DBwatts like they should. The difference between 75 and 85 watts is only 0.54 db.

 

If you want more OUTPUT power, you need to have more efficient/sensitive/bigger speakers, not more watts, which really need a factor of 10X more power to make that much difference. 

 

Waste of time and money to put out more Speaker Intermodulation DISTORTION, if you ask me or any other PWK disciple.

 

PS: Yes I own RP600M's too, but I use them as Computer Speakers, not my main sound systems, which are ALL HORNS.

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On 7/22/2021 at 8:34 PM, The History Kid said:

2. IMO, no.  Not at all.  The S series and the previous revisions lacked a lot when I ran them on even the most elementary Klipsch configurations.

 

+1 In stereo and 5.1 mode my 95 watt rated Denon x2300 feelsnotisably less powerful vs the older 100 watt rated Pioner I had before.

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