Khorns Don't Sound Right

[greg928gts]

Sorry about the last one, I hit the enter button by accident.

I haven't listened to my Khorns for the last 2 years until today. I went through all the wiring, put my MC2200 that I just had cleaned into the rack, and did some listening.

Maybe it's my ears, bad connectors, something wrong with the amp, I don't know, but my Khorns sounded very flat, non-dynamic, lacking bass, lacking highs. In short, very lackluster and boring. Not at all how I remember them sounding.

Is there a limit to how long the drivers or crossovers last? My speakers are 21 years old, I've had them for 8 years.

Thanks for any input.

Greg

[leok]

What amp and source?

leok

[mobile homeless]

Hmmm...what can I say? For fear of getting lambasted by the McIntosh lovers worldwide. But I am feeling particularly spry today...so what the hell.

I find the McIntosh solid state to be the most highly overrated gear around. To me, it sounds BIG, bold, but ponderous and somewhat thick and grainy comparative wise. It always struck me as a lovely looking product, built like the proverbial tank, and with a titanic reputation to match all reputations. If it was McIntosh, then it was GOOD.

Play it and they will come.

But for some reason, I would rather listen to a $150 vintage tube integrated than a 200wpc McIntosh solid state powerhouse, especially through horns. It's more musical. It's exudes more life. It is more in touch with the soul and essence of the music. In short, to me, it is a better amplifier all the way around. And I use the term $150 tube integrated loosely.

Perhaps there is something else amuck, but if me, I would be tempted to run some valve options with those 104db Khorns. I sold my last 200w monoblocks, amps I thought bettered the McIntosh SS options in every way, but were bested by a $100 1959 EL-84 integrated from the likes of little EICO, a NY firm. Alas, another US company, but on the other end of the spectrum.

kh

ps- Leok is right...what source as well? This could have played a culprit in the matter.

[greg928gts]

A new Denon DCM 370 CD, my old Adcom GTP550 (which I never liked the sound of from day 1). Tone out. Played with a Paradigm Servo 15 that I'm test driving, tried it on and off. But just listening to the Khorns without the sub sounded very different than I remember. I'm 39, suppose I'm going deeeef!?

I think I need an E.Q.

Greg

[tigerwoodKhorns]

I realize that I am putting my 2 cents in where some real experts have already spoken but...

Try a different source to eliminate the speakers as the culprits.

My CD through a Denon receiver sounds great on the K-horns, and most records sound great, but there are some recordings on vinyl that sound very flat on these speakers. even when expanded via a DBX 3BX. Some older CD's that are not remastered sound bad too (60 and 70's music that I purchased on CD in the 80's before remastering was really in) On SS (at least in my limited experience) the K-horns sound really dynamic, maybe a little too much at times.

A question if I may to the experts:

I have a couple of Denon Receivers. The newer one definately sounds better. My problem is that I did some switching the other day and found that my Heresys don't really sound that good (A little "swaky") on the SS Denon (either model). I would really like to keep the Denon for home theater with the heresys but I don't know what to do. I know that the Heresys are really good speakers because I heard them on some tube equipment and they were wonderful. But I want to use them with the SS stuff. I am mating my K-horns with a tube for 2 channel, so I really don't need the heresys for that.

I have been reading the thread on cables. I am using Kimber 4PR, but I really don't want to get into the whole cable thing yet.

Any advice?

Chris

[HDBRbuilder]

Tigerwood...don't you have something S/S on the way for those Heresys? Just relax til it gets there.

[leok]

How to make a transistor amp sound good? That's easy. Use a very inefficient speaker so that the amp is putting out a fair portion of its rated power. At rated power, transistor amps are pretty good .. just look at the distortion specs. note that they are measured at rated output (because at 1 Watt or less they're usually terrible).

Magneplaners sound good driven by transistor amps.

Other than that, I gave up and built my own using the Tripath TA1101B. Then I re-discovered tube amps. I don't know what I'd do if I wanted decent HT .. maybe .. no, I just don't know.

leok

[HDBRbuilder]

As is usual for anything...there are ALWAYS a FEW exceptions.

[lynnm]

"Maybe it's my ears, bad connectors, something wrong with the amp, I don't know, but my Khorns sounded very flat, non-dynamic, lacking bass, lacking highs. In short, very lackluster and boring. Not at all how I remember them sounding. "

Bet you dollars to doughnuts they're out of phase. Try reversing the connection to one,(left or right is irrelevant but don't reverse both) of the speakers.

[Deang]

Greg,

Your K-horns are probably fine.

A question, and a few suggestions.

1) Are they physically located in the same place they were two years ago, or are they in a different room now?

2) Go back and check your speaker wires. Make absolutely sure you have not reversed the leads by accident. I have done this myself on more than one occasion. If you have one of the 'positives' on a 'negative' terminal (or visa versa) -- it would sound very much like you are describing.

3) Turn your system on and turn it down to a rather low level. Do one channel at a time. Put your ear to each section of the speaker to verify all the drivers are working. You should easily hear the bass coming from the back of the bass bin, the midrange coming out the midrange horn, and treble out of the tweeter. Check both speakers. Well?

4) Check all of the settings on your receiver. Make sure it is set to two channel/normal. No surround sound settings or matrixing.

5) Wiggle your interconnects, and make sure you don't have any problems there as well.

6) Take the sub completely out of the circuit. Get the K-horns 'right' -- then add the sub back in.

Report back. Good luck!

[tigerwoodKhorns]

HDBR,

I was going to hook the Harman up to a set of JBL's in another room. I may use one of the sets of heresys in there, but I really wanted all klipsch for the HT.

Maybe some less efficient speakers are the way to go with the denon, I really don't know. The interesting thing is that the K-horns sound good with the denon (and so do the jbl's). The heresys are the only ones that don't sound good with the SS.

By the way,

I switched the phasing on my horns just to make sure that they were in phase and I knew immediately! The imaging just dissappeared. I didn't listen long enough to see what happened to the dynamic range, but I am sure that it was probably gone too.

That was some really good advice, give it a try. (that's why I refer to these guys as the experts)

Chris

[Deang]

Leo, why not do what I do.

If I want to see a movie, I take an extended lunch break in the middle of the week, and go to the theater. I can't remember the last time there were more than 10 or 15 people in there with me. It's nice.

Of course, I think you would be surprised how enjoyable an old, or more recent movie can be just using 2 speakers -- especially Klipsch speakers. You just need a cheapie DVD player.

[mobile homeless]

Excellent advice about seeing the movie in a theater. Too bad about the cost, but a daytime show is not too bad and the experience is almost akin to an outting sort of like reading a book vs staring at the text on a computer. Well, not exactly, but you get my drift.

While I still stand by the McIntosh solid state remarks, in all actuality, it probably is something to do with phasing or wiring of some sort (after you make sure all the drivers are firing). I find this a common mistake as well. Also, let that big SS McIntosh warm up for a few hours as in about 24....leave it on. Get the connections 100% correct, let everything settle a bit, and take another listen. It wont have the bloom of some other offerings, but my bet is will sound better than the day before. My advice is to never turn your solid state gear off, including the CD player, Adcom, and McIntosh amp. Also, what outputs are you using with the Adcom? Dont they have lab outs? I believe I would stick with them over the other.

And just try leaving all your gear on to stay warmed up. Many will scoff but it makes a differece.

kh

[HDBRbuilder]

Tigerwood, if the k-horns sound good with it, the Heresys should too. Check the HERESY phasing! Also check the connections AT the Heresys!

[leok]

Good idea Dean. Then the theater can worry about what kind of amps and speakers to use.

By the way .. HDBRbuilder, I try to qualify my transistor generalities by saying that there are some good ss amps out there (and evidently you've found a few). I forgot this time. I believe it's important for me to include that qualification, mostly because I think it's true.

leok

[greg928gts]

Thanks for all the advice everyone. I'll try some of these things tomorrow or the next day and report back.

Same room as before. I had other components not working properly, and wiring problems, so I just kind of gave up on it for a while. That's why 2 years. I did rewire everything this morning (with old wires), so it's possible I have something out of phase, or a bad wire.

Going to bed. Greg out.

[tigerwoodKhorns]

HDBR,

It is getting late but I just had to make this post. it definately is not the Denon amp. I was just listening to Steely Dan's Aja and had the heresys on first (On the "Better" Denon - I switched the K-horns to the older Denon and the Heresys to the better one because I thought that the Denon was the culprit) I put the heresys on top of the older ones to get them at ear level.

They sounded decent. If I had to describe them, I would say that I was listening to speakers. If I didn't know and someone told me that I was listening to horns, I would say "OK, I can see that." They sound like a lower end sound system than what they should be, good but just not right. a little to much of a touch of "am radio" (just a touch, but noticeable) I had the subwoofers on that are adjusted well, so the bass fit in nicely, but something was just off, although the imaging was really good.

Then I put the K-horns on, with the older Denon receiver....

Beautiful music appeared. mellow, smooth, warm, just nice to listen to. No subs (not that they were a problem). when I sat down in the "sweet spot" everything just blended into a smooth mix. The imaging is fantastic (the imaging with the heresys is also great). Now I was listening to music, not horns. The speakers dissappear. Here is the best way that I can describe it, when the K-horns are on, I have to keep playing "just one more song." I will sit to listen to a CD, and before I know it, an hour or two has passed because I keep listening to just one more. The sound is so nice, whatever amp that I am using, that I cannot stop listening.

My Heresy's serial number is 8425740, walnut tested by Mike Brantly. (I just checked one)

My other pair of heresys (I have not hooked them up yet) serial number 91T988 Inspected by Janet Lathan, Tested by Bradford. (again I just wrote one down)

What series do I have? Are these the ones that need the swaker dampened?

If so, is it really worth it? I can buy less efficient speakers that sound good, the amp has plenty of power. I really like my old JBL L-60's.

Chris

[HDBRbuilder]

Tigerwood,

One of your Heresys was made in 1984, the other made in 1979...two different squawker drivers...maybe different woofers...not sure if your tweeter is the same or not..."T" serial-numbered one may or may not have the K77 Alnico in it...1984 one will have the K77M. If the difference between the sound of the Heresy and the K-horn is much more than just the bass bottom-end(primarily), then something is wrong somewhere. Check the connections on the BACK of the Heresys...ensure the wire ends have NOT corroded on you and have a good connection...ensure that the terminals themselves on the Heresy backs are not loose in any way(this, on occassion, happens over time)...also ensure they are in phase. There shouldn't be that much difference in the sound(except for decibels/dispersion and the bottom-end) between the Heresys and the K-horns!

[greg928gts]

I appreciate all the advice on what might have been wrong with the sound of my Khorns. As it turned out, it wasn't the Khorns at all.

As soon as I changed the batteries in my hearing aid, the sound came back good as new!

Just kidding.

I did figure out what was going on. I just had my McIntosh MC2200 cleaned, but the volume knobs were still not working properly. I turned everything on today and at first it sounded just like I remembered it, very open, full, dynamic, and a bit sharp. Then, as I was listening, the sound almost faded, moved back toward the wall, and got thin sounding. I wiggled wires and tried to figure out what was going on, and when I moved the volume knobs I realized.

[HDBRbuilder]

Tigerwood...one of these days I am gonna post a pic of Janet Latham on here...and you will do some SERIOUS drooling when you realize she did the final assembly/inspection of your Heresys!! LOL!